110 replies to this topic

[smlobx]

Anyone just sleep outside ?
 
BWSracing, interesting about the ice build up behind the arctic pack. That's got to really suck when it melts. I've often wondered why FWC hasn't gone with a multi layer soft side. Surely that would be some improvement. I'm guessing interference with the lift panels but IDK. Maybe it's cost or sales simply don't warrant it as most buyers might expect these to be ......
 
But I always come back to the elephant in the winter camping room, lack of adequate insulation.

When I was looking at which camper to buy this was one thing I was wondering about with FWC's. I ended up going with a Hallmark in part because they have a three piece soft wall. The inside and outside fabric are some sort of vinyl fabric with a thin foam layer between. It can still get cold inside but it has to be better..

[Wallowa]

When I was looking at which camper to buy this was one thing I was wondering about with FWC's. I ended up going with a Hallmark in part because they have a three piece soft wall. The inside and outside fabric are some sort of vinyl fabric with a thin foam layer between. It can still get cold inside but it has to be better..

 

Better?  Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....

 

I concur with so many on this thread....vented circulation is the key to carrying moisture outside the FWC to avoid most condensation inside the camper.. but this creates the necessity for use of propane to heat interior, powered vents to outside and electrical current to run furnace and vents..and honestly I doubt under really adverse moisture/temperature conditions you could circulate enough air behind the Arctic Pack , or under a mattress [etc], to eliminate the condensation...no free lunch.  Our FWCs will never be free from interior condensation...hell, most homes are not either...

 

 

Speaking of which...Do ya think interior shower option introduces excessive amount of moisture to the interior of a FWC?

Edited by Wallowa, 13 December 2018 - 11:02 PM.

[patrickkidd]

Better? Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....

I concur with so many on this thread....vented circulation is the key to carrying moisture outside the FWC to avoid most condensation inside the camper.. but this creates the necessity for use of propane to heat interior, powered vents to outside and electrical current to run furnace and vents..and honestly I doubt under really adverse moisture/temperature conditions you could circulate enough air behind the Arctic Pack , or under a mattress [etc], to eliminate the condensation...no free lunch. Our FWCs will never be free from interior condensation...hell, most homes are not either...


Speaking of which...Do ya think interior shower option introduces excessive amount of moisture to the interior of a FWC?

Re: shower: Sure, but it’s acute not chronic

[klahanie]

Better?  Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....

 

 

I was thinking a sealed, multi layer, soft wall fabric, both sides of which are both an air barrier and a moisture barrier. eg outer vinyl + insulating material + inner vinyl. This would replace, not supplement, the single thickness vinyl as the soft wall construction.

 

Under the right conditions condensation or ice would still form on the side facing the interior of the camper, in the same fashion as the current single thickness vinyl version. The difference, as I see it, would be the range of those conditions. Imagine, to use the glass analogy, a double pane vs single pane window in a home kitchen/bath application. EDIT... in cold weather conditions !

Edited by klahanie, 14 December 2018 - 01:10 AM.

[smlobx]

Better?  Depends, I would assume; like ice found behind the Arctic Pack, any good insulating "soft wall" will result in ice forming on inside of the exterior vinyl skin when inside of camper is warm, and thus carrying moisture, and vinyl behind insulating wall is cold like the exterior...old ice/condensation on water glass created by same conditions...our Arctic Packs add insulation [very small amount] but will not stop moisture condensing out when temperature differential and humidity reach a critical point....?

Wallowa, first of all please understand that I am in no way criticizing FWC for their construction techniques. All campers are an exercise in compromise, just like any multifaceted project.
The FWC Thermal Pack is a breathable panel. This also means that moisture also passes through it and then hits the cold exterior panel which causes condensation.
By having two layers of vinyl (like) fabric with a thin layer of foam between them there is no transfer of moisture through the fabric and the foam reduces (by a small amount) the thermal transfer. While there is still the potential of condensation it is minimized compared to the Thermal Pack.
The coldest we have camped at so far is 21 degrees F and I know that many here have camped at much lower temps but in our limited experience the only condensation we had was on the three roof vents. I will be cutting some 2" foam to fit inside the vents which will give us R-10. I also insulated our floor which had no insulation (I think most truck campers just have 3/4" plywood there) by gluing 1 1/2" foam between the skids on the bottom side of the camper. There is a thread of the here on WTW showing how I did it.

I hope this helps...

[Wallowa]

I was thinking a sealed, multi layer, soft wall fabric, both sides of which are both an air barrier and a moisture barrier. eg outer vinyl + insulating material + inner vinyl. This would replace, not supplement, the single thickness vinyl as the soft wall construction.

 

Under the right conditions condensation or ice would still form on the side facing the interior of the camper, in the same fashion as the current single thickness vinyl version. The difference, as I see it, would be the range of those conditions. Imagine, to use the glass analogy, a double pane vs single pane window in a home kitchen/bath application. EDIT... in cold weather conditions !

  Odd you would mention double pane window....we live in a very dry climate and our double paned windows accumulate ice on the inside on cold nights behind thermal shades...as to what you described, air will still be between the outside vinyl of the camper wall and the outside of the soft wall fabric...hence ice/condensation will form...the way I view it is that with a large temperature differential between any two surfaces inside our campers; ice/moisture will form on the colder surface...only real way to slow or stop this is to have the outer wall have sufficient insulation so that the inner surface of that insulation stays the same temp as the inside air...ain't going to happen in a camper and often not even in homes...

 

Steady circulation of heated air that is vented to outside is the only way we can really slow down the condensation on inner surfaces in our FWCs....but hey, I could be wrong!

[knoxswift]

You might want to look at what I just recently did to insulate our floor. Easy and only added a couple of pounds to the camper...

http://www.wanderthe...of-your-camper/

 

THIS!

I followed smlobx DYI and I do believe it made a difference. 

[Happyjax]

If I was gonna camp in the cold for more than a night I would consider putting reflectix on the outside and inside of the vinyl top. I know somewhere here someone did the outside to protect from heat. I think t would also help with the cold. Velcro is your friend

[smlobx]

If I was gonna camp in the cold for more than a night I would consider putting reflectix on the outside and inside of the vinyl top. I know somewhere here someone did the outside to protect from heat. I think t would also help with the cold. Velcro is your friend

Velcro and duct tape!
Where we would be without them...

[PaulT]

Happyjax has the right idea in moving the cold surface, where condensation can form from moist air, to the outside of the pop-up wall. Either warm the interior surface enough to keep it above the dew point, or add insulation to the outside, or remove the moist air through ventilation. 

 

I remember a winter spent in 100 mile House BC in a cabin with 2x4 walls insulated with sawdust and covered by wood paneling inside. The nail heads holding the paneling to the 2x4's would get very cold in -40 degrees. Each morning there would be a quarter inch frost ball on each nail head even though the cabin was well heated. Our breath was enough to provide sufficient moisture.

 

Paul