34 replies to this topic

[billharr]

Good friend is a Federal Firearms License, make expensive guns for living. When I did my first long trip other friends asked what I will be carrying? I am not apposed to guns but I am not a gun person. Had a temper a long time ago and just don't need to have a gun. My friend with the FFL told me he carries Bear Spray, he said he can't afford to lose his license if he use a gun on someone. He also told me if the Bear Spray is less than $50 I need to buy a bigger can.   

[Advmoto18]

I don't think bear spray is proper protection against another person with life-threatening intent.

 

I was a Type 07 FFL licensee for many, many years.  I too made very expensive, custom, one-off handguns.  I'm now retired from that venture as well.

 

I never once thought of not carrying a firearm for self defense where legally permitted because of my FFL.  If my FFL was suspended while a justified shooting was investigated, so be it.  Better to temporarily lose my FFL than my life or that of a loved one or innocent bystander I could assist.

 

Having been subjected to CS gas and other temporarily inhibiting agents (training environment), I can assure you bear spray will not be an effective deterrent unless you are in a crowded urban setting where you can escape into the crowd in a matter of seconds.

 

I've even heard the argument that carrying/using a tactical/combat knife is better than a handgun.  Not sure I grasp that argument, but, the trouble with knives, they result in a lot of blood.  Blood is very slick, and knife injuries in a fight are very seldom, immediately fatal or a quick ending to the life-threatening encounter.  I think the same argument goes for bear spray, without the blood.  Bear spray may allow you to get some separation from the threatening individual, but that separation may not end the encounter.  

 

I too want to thank the mods for allowing this conversation.

 

All posts have been respectful, polite, thoughtful and insightful!   What makes this forum truly special.

Edited by Advmoto18, 07 January 2020 - 01:13 PM.

[Luckytibbs]

"Although it’s not normally discussed I believe the vast majority of RVers carry from my experience..." I guess it depends on the definition of "carry". I have never gotten a CC permit for my daily activities since Durango, CO is a really small and mostly safe town with a fast response police force. (IMO the best option is always 1) locked doors, 2) dial 911/wait for the cops and then 3) if all else fails a short barreled 12 gauge.)

However, given the isolated and often without cell reception places most of us camp the logistical details change. So I always 1) camp with the snout of the truck facing out, 2) keep the truck and camper locked at all times and 3) (if there is no other alternative such as 'running away') keep a 16 shot 9mm in a console gun safe during the day and in an easily accessible drawer at night. (No kids camp with us.)

So in this sense I guess I'm an "RVer that carries"...

As a woman that travels alone in the remote backcountry I agree. I am armed but it is my last resort. I have bear spray at every truck door and camper door, lock the camper always and also keep my truck nose parked for a quick getaway. I feel safer with the gun. I am also like most RVers I know.

[craig333]

Hmmm, I don't park with a quick exit in mind. Maybe I should. Backing up making a quick exit can be problematic at best.

[N'kwala]

I am a woman who travels alone a lot.  No way I'd carry a gun.  Yes, I do make sure I can exit quickly from a camp site.  I'm not so sure that carrying a firearm is typical among RVers.  I just don't know.  I do carry pepper spray and keep bear spray handy, both for bears and for humans with ill intent.  What is it, that people think malefactors carrying firearms are going to do that bear spray won't stop?  From everything I've seen in news, firearm related episodes tend to be in cities, schools, churches, etc., not wild places.  I don't dismiss the possibility that I'm misled in this.  Also, perhaps I'm wrong, but as a woman, I've always assumed that a shot of pepper spary to the glans would settle any immediate danger of rape.  Could be wrong.  Don't want to test it. 

 

I've been camping and travelling alone for 40 years.  Had one wierd episode with a drunk who wanted to keep my company.  Chased him off.  One bear episode. Bear left when I yelled "Beat it."  Didn't need a gun.  Who knows?  Maybe next time I'll go camping, something awful will happen.  Then again, maybe next time I go shopping some nutter with a AR15 will bust up the shopping centre.  Not sure a CCW permit would help, although I've always been pretty sure if anyone threatened my family or loved ones I'd use the shotgun in the house to kill them. 

 

Funny old world, eh?

[Adventurer]

Whatever you're doing seems to be working.

[AWG_Pics]

I am a woman who travels alone a lot.  No way I'd carry a gun.  Yes, I do make sure I can exit quickly from a camp site.  I'm not so sure that carrying a firearm is typical among RVers.  I just don't know.  I do carry pepper spray and keep bear spray handy, both for bears and for humans with ill intent.  What is it, that people think malefactors carrying firearms are going to do that bear spray won't stop?  From everything I've seen in news, firearm related episodes tend to be in cities, schools, churches, etc., not wild places.  I don't dismiss the possibility that I'm misled in this.  Also, perhaps I'm wrong, but as a woman, I've always assumed that a shot of pepper spary to the glans would settle any immediate danger of rape.  Could be wrong.  Don't want to test it. 

 

I've been camping and travelling alone for 40 years.  Had one wierd episode with a drunk who wanted to keep my company.  Chased him off.  One bear episode. Bear left when I yelled "Beat it."  Didn't need a gun.  Who knows?  Maybe next time I'll go camping, something awful will happen.  Then again, maybe next time I go shopping some nutter with a AR15 will bust up the shopping centre.  Not sure a CCW permit would help, although I've always been pretty sure if anyone threatened my family or loved ones I'd use the shotgun in the house to kill them. 

 

Funny old world, eh?

This, yes! I won't carry a gun either. Nor do I believe there is much need for one. I have traveled for decades around the west without a firearm -- never had a situation arise where I wish I had one. My wife often travels to southern Mexico to learn weaving and has never felt unsafe. The least safe I ever felt was at a bar in Boise when a knife was waved at me and in a few of the back of beyond places in east Africa I used to work in. Kind of unnerving to walk down the stairs to deplane and a teenager chewing some hallucinogenic herb and brandishing an AK with a banana clip is staring at me like I was a unpleasant bug as I set foot on the ground in his country.

 

But, I figure when my time is up, it is up. That does not mean I put myself in stupid situations. Don't worry about it too much though.

[Yellowstone Randy]

My 2 cents on conceal carry....

 

Take a class, even four or five from very respected instructors.  Decide if you have the mind set for shooting another human being.   Also, explore the post shooting circumstances you will most certainly be facing.  

 

When I say take a class, I'm am referring to beyond your conceal carry instruction, not instruction/classes to obtain you conceal carry permit.

 

In-so-far as instructors are concerned, there is no industry certification process.   

 

There are excellent civilian instructors, but there are many who have no business teaching.  I would highly recommend seeking out former military individuals who teach.  Being former military, many come to mind and I participate in several classes annually.

 

To name of few on my short list...

Pat McNamara

Jeff Gonzales    Jeff has a lot of focus on mind set.  After his class, you will have a better understanding of your mindset

Mike Pannone

 

Being a good instructor goes beyond shooting and fundamentals.  A good instructor must possess the ability to teach and be an excellent conduit of information.  The above gentlemen cross and exceed that threshold IMHO.

 

Carrying a concealed pistol is not about carrying a concealed pistol but rather possessing a tool, the skills and the mind set to kill another human who is threatening your life, the life of a loved one or an innocent bystander.  

 

I've carried for decades, given the chance, my first option is to always RUN!!!!   Followed by seeking cover or concealment (cover will stop bullets, concealment will not) to assess the situation.  My skills are pretty advanced, but, I am no longer trained or current on the practice of moving to and engaging an active shooter.  Those are skills that need to be practiced frequently and with other equally trained shooters.  Moving to and engaging an active shooter, room clearing, etc are highly advanced skills.  A single mistake could cost you your life.

 

Think long and hard about what will happen post shoot...your life will be turned upside down by the judicial system.

 

What do you say to the police on your first encounter post-shoot?  Do you even talk to the police about the "shoot" without your lawyer present?  

 

Your lawyer better be in your speed dial and call him/her at your first chance.

 

You need a post shoot plan in place.  Bank on being detained.

 

Not trying to scare you out of "carrying", just trying to illustrate what you will face post-shoot, even justified.  And remember, the "justified" will be likely be determined many months if not years post shoot.

Very well put 

Advmoto18

My background and experience sounds very similar to yours-  As a alternative, some may want to consider carrying bear mace, and avoiding all of the post shooting grief you mentioned.  I have military, and law enforcement experience, and a CCW, but many times I just bring the bear mace. BTW, bear mace,  going with the odds, may be more reliable than a amateur with a new CCW.   My 2 cents

Edited by Yellowstone Randy, 09 January 2020 - 02:37 PM.

[Smokecreek1]

Life can be funny sometime! This morning I got my latest issue of "Strategy&Tactics Magazine. As I was flipping through it I stopped at an article about Ceasar and his famous  Roman 10th Legion and right  there as a part of the article was a picture of Ben Franklin with the following caption, "By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail."  I think that comment sort of sums up in essence the point of this discussion about "to carry or not carry" and in general, the many discussions we have here on how to survive and maybe even thrive out in the back country.   As stated above (and in other threads found here on WTW) practicing "situational awareness"  based on both training and  experience  and good dose of common sense (good old BenF here) may mean you have a chance to make it through that time you prepared for when  something goes wrong!

 

Like allot  of people on this site, i have spent a large part of my time both at play and work in the back country.  I grew up in the country and my family loved to play in the woods and learned about guns.  I was in the Army along time ago and very  lucky in getting a job with the BLM where I got to work in the woods and back country.  A large part of my job meant dealing with the "Public"  Over the years I watched  more and more of these "Public (some law abiding-some not)" invade  the back country; most of them apparently having no knowledge or ethics of the ways of the wild. All that time,  I never carried a gun, I  just had  my experience and trusty field dog (I was again lucky because good dogs were allowed to go with us where I worked) to help me deal with the public and any natural resource problems like getting stuck or dealing with unhappy bulls, miners, lost hunters or a herd of wild horses trying to protect a new fold.  When I camped in the back country by myself, for BLM, I did have a 22. Mag pistol that I brought out and loaded at night when I was done for the day-more to make me feel good than anything else.  I also carried it when I was back packing or playing on my own time.

 

For maybe the last 20 years of my time in BLM, I worked closely with BLM Law Enforcement as the government finally  realized that we needed someone to deal with the many new problems bought by the influx of all these new people.  I learned from them and saw how the better ones worked with and interacted with the public (sort of how I and many others  did).  Many of our new LEO's didn't know much about the woods or BLM-so it became a two way street.   Situational awareness, experience,  common sense --today you need them for a successful day in the woods.  So do I need a gun to survive out there today as a retired gentlemen? Maybe!  Sometimes.

 

I have a plan!! Firstly, I use all of my experience, all that knowledge I hope I gained over the years not to get into trouble("situational awareness")   with nature or people.  It is sort of like driving in the Bay Area or down I-5 -know where you are going and what to do if that idiot in front of you hits hits brakes.  Once I found a place to pop the top and camp, I have  my faithful hound. If I'm walking in the woods or sleeping on my bunk, she'll alert to anyone or thing near by (including birds and lizards and once a bull who thought I camped in his spot) and maybe give me time to climb that tree or pull out that can of bear spay. or just run to the camper.  Yep, over the years I have started carrying it, maybe it will stop that bear or dog or person!  In a lot of places we have to camp these days (meaning more uneducated people,state laws) a can of bear spay is more acceptable than wearing my 357 on my hip!  Bear spay-heard allot about the good and bad about it, figure it can't hurt!  Again it may give me that time to do something else.

 

So yep I do have a gun---a camp rifle, a 22 Mag  I also have a pistol that is usually locked away, and it is sort of a thing of last resort for me because unlike my law enforcement friends I have not had the right fire arms training and experience to deal with a drunk camper with a gun like they have.  Again trying to avoid the situation in the first place is always the best plan. Sometimes in the back country the situation (usually because of animals) may dictate that I keep my gun close-just in case. If a bad guy  or that bear comes into my camper one night , he has to go through my dog, then the bear spay, and by then, my gun should be ready!   Maybe this plan isn't the best one, but it has worked for me so far and luckily  for me, I have never had to implement it completely.

 

Smoke

 

Smoke

Edited by Smokecreek1, 10 January 2020 - 12:59 AM.

[WjColdWater]

Life can be funny sometime! This morning I got my latest issue of "Strategy&Tactics Magazine. As I was flipping through it I stopped at an article about Ceasar and his famous  Roman 10th Legion and right  there as a part of the article was a picture of Ben Franklin with the following caption, "By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail."  I think that comment sort of sums up in essence the point of this discussion about "to carry or not carry" and in general, the many discussions we have here on how to survive and maybe even thrive out in the back country.   As stated above (and in other threads found here on WTW) practicing "situational awareness"  based on both training and  experience  and good dose of common sense (good old BenF here) may mean you have a chance to make it through that time you prepared for when  something goes wrong!

 

Like allot  of people on this site, i have spent a large part of my time both at play and work in the back country.  I grew up in the country and my family loved to play in the woods and learned about guns.  I was in the Army along time ago and very  lucky in getting a job with the BLM where I got to work in the woods and back country.  A large part of my job meant dealing with the "Public"  Over the years I watched  more and more of these "Public (some law abiding-some not)" invade  the back country; most of them apparently having no knowledge or ethics of the ways of the wild. All that time,  I never carried a gun, I  just had  my experience and trusty field dog (I was again lucky because good dogs were allowed to go with us where I worked) to help me deal with the public and any natural resource problems like getting stuck or dealing with unhappy bulls, miners, lost hunters or a herd of wild horses trying to protect a new fold.  When I camped in the back country by myself, for BLM, I did have a 22. Mag pistol that I brought out and loaded at night when I was done for the day-more to make me feel good than anything else.  I also carried it when I was back packing or playing on my own time.

 

For maybe the last 20 years of my time in BLM, I worked closely with BLM Law Enforcement as the government finally  realized that we needed someone to deal with the many new problems bought by the influx of all these new people.  I learned from them and saw how the better ones worked with and interacted with the public (sort of how I and many others  did).  Many of our new LEO's didn't know much about the woods or BLM-so it became a two way street.   Situational awareness, experience,  common sense --today you need them for a successful day in the woods.  So do I need a gun to survive out there today as a retired gentlemen? Maybe!  Sometimes.

 

I have a plan!! Firstly, I use all of my experience, all that knowledge I hope I gained over the years not to get into trouble("situational awareness")   with nature or people.  It is sort of like driving in the Bay Area or down I-5 -know where you are going and what to do if that idiot in front of you hits hits brakes.  Once I found a place to pop the top and camp, I have  my faithful hound. If I'm walking in the woods or sleeping on my bunk, she'll alert to anyone or thing near by (including birds and lizards and once a bull who thought I camped in his spot) and maybe give me time to climb that tree or pull out that can of bear spay. or just run to the camper.  Yep, over the years I have started carrying it, maybe it will stop that bear or dog or person!  In a lot of places we have to camp these days (meaning more uneducated people,state laws) a can of bear spay is more acceptable than wearing my 357 on my hip!  Bear spay-heard allot about the good and bad about it, figure it can't hurt!  Again it may give me that time to do something else.

 

So yep I do have a gun---a camp rifle, a 22 Mag  I also have a pistol that is usually locked away, and it is sort of a thing of last resort for me because unlike my law enforcement friends I have not had the right fire arms training and experience to deal with a drunk camper with a gun like they have.  Again trying to avoid the situation in the first place is always the best plan. Sometimes in the back country the situation (usually because of animals) may dictate that I keep my gun close-just in case. If a bad guy  or that bear comes into my camper one night , he has to go through my dog, then the bear spay, and by then, my gun should be ready!   Maybe this plan isn't the best one, but it has worked for me so far and luckily  for me, I have never had to implement it completely.

 

Smoke

 

Smoke

Smoke, thanks to you and the other posters on the robust comments on the subject!