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Rear turnbuckle mount failure on Hallmark Guanella

Hallmark turnbuckles camper mounting off-road 4WD Tie downs damage repair

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#11 OpenSpace

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 09:30 PM

Yep, it's a 2011 Guanella on a short bed Chevy with frame-mounted fast guns  

 

The rear jack mount will work on my truck without interfering with anything. Might make a few calls to see what the  "experts" think (Hallmark, Torklift), but my plan is this.

 

Fabricate a beefy L-shaped piece of steel and bolt it onto the lower jack bracket using the already present bolt/hole (pic 1). Bracket will extend around the jack leg for the turnbuckle to clip into. That's it. Simple, should be strong, clears exterior storage boxes easily. Does create some potentially funky angles, though.  

 

Edit: Can't bolt into one hole only. If I move forward, I'll remove the jack bracket and fabricate an entirely new one with a clip-in point. That way I'll be tied into 7 bolts.

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Edited by OpenSpace, 06 December 2016 - 10:33 PM.

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#12 DoGMAtix

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 11:25 PM

I didn't realize how far the frame mounts stick out to the side. Seems like you could do something like that, but creating a lever arm to torque the jack may not be the best idea.

Did you get a chance to look for the interior plates? Seems like a pretty easy modification, with minimal time, expense, and reinvention of the wheel.

 

Speaking of which, I just got back from the auto metal fabricator's shop. We're incredibly fortunate to have a guy in Albuquerque who specializes in bomb-proofing jeeps and SUVs for crazy off-road applications. He drives a fully modified forerunner that could cruise through armageddon without spilling what's in the drink holder. We did a few laps around, inside, and under the camper, and with a few modifications we'll be going ahead with the plan I outlined above. The biggest differences are that the plates will not be as long as I'd planned (after a point the metal won't spread the force), and the interior plates will be bent upward not only on the edge along the lateral wall, but slightly on the edge toward the center of the camper (only a small fraction of an inch on that side since it'll be right under the seat cushion), which will give a lot of additional strength. We're going to gorilla glue plywood back into the holes to try to keep the structure from splintering more and to seal it. And (this I gotta see), he plans to put short adjustable springs (I believe designed for engine mounting) onto the lower mounting plates so big shocks won't be fully transmitted to the camper (that part is still in beta phase, and could be left out or reworked).

He's even got a test dirt track to take the thing out and make sure it works in simulated real-life conditions.

It'll be a few weeks before we've got a finished product, but I can sleep better now. Actually only a little better, because I'm pretty excited about seeing how this all turns out.


Edited by DoGMAtix, 06 December 2016 - 11:26 PM.

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#13 OpenSpace

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:01 AM

Sounds like a good plan.

 

Can't remember if you said, but did the failed wood look rotted or compromised?

 

I did look in my camper and the plates are fine. Leaning toward the interior/exterior larger plate mod now as I think it'll be more aesthetically pleasing and work fine. Bending the interior plate edge is interesting - wouldn't have known to try that.

 

I'll look forward to some pics when you're done. Thanks. 


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#14 DoGMAtix

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:07 AM

The wood seemed to be in good condition (my neighbor who's a contractor and the guy at the shop both agreed); I'd expect it to fail again over a reasonably short period of time if we were to have the camper rebuilt with the same type of plywood, brand new. It's just too thin to do what's asked of it - withstand repeated massive forces over a small area (2 1/4 x 5 inches), right at the edge of the board.

As I previously mentioned, we plan to make a beefier exterior mounting piece that'll hold its shape under stress, but the original, relatively flimsy stainless plate had nothing to do with the inner plates coming through and out. That was all about the size of the upper plates in relation to the strength of the material they were sitting on.

It's possible to go crazy on this stuff, and everything can be overbuilt to the point you're basically driving a panzer tank into the wilderness. We appreciate the light/nimble nature of our rig, and are trying to find a happy medium where we're beefed up in the places we need to be, and aero-light elsewhere. After all, Bill came at this from an aero-engineering background, and the elements of that that came through in the camper design are what we love about it.


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#15 DoGMAtix

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 05:28 AM

Just spoke with one of the senior engineers at Torklift. He understands our limitations and thinks our plan is reasonable (though obviously he's not very happy about the fact that we can't mount to a structurally robust frame component on the camper).

He did recommend getting "StableLoads," which are little wedge-like things that mount on rear leaf springs to reduce bumps and sway. They also raise the rear end a couple of inches, and apparently allow you to run less pressure in air bags if you have them (we do), which can help limit sudden strong bounces on bumpy roads.

 

http://www.torklift....sion/stableload

 

Anybody have experience with this product?


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#16 Bad Habit

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 01:54 PM

Basically they are there to engage contact with the overload spring sooner and/or all the time.  The wedge style fits between the main spring pack and the lower overload spring.  It can pivot out of the way so you can disengage if you aren't carrying a load to help minimize the harsh ride.  The other style replaces the upper overload spring contact pads to also engage sooner.  I have these on my Ford.  With the upper ones, the spring isn't in contact when empty, but in normal driving you do contact it quite a bit, some people don't like the added hashness of the ride.

 

This is a picture of the upper one to give you an idea.  The frame bracket is actually bent from when I hit my bump.  Withe the loaded fast guns in the rear, it allowed the camper and truck to oscillate at different rates and bottomed out the overload I presume which bent the bracket.  In any case, you get the idea, pretty simple idea

 

IMG_20150228_122754_zpsavl0vimv.jpg

 


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#17 DoGMAtix

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Posted 08 December 2016 - 11:29 PM

Bad Habit, do you have the lower StableLoads too, or just the uppers? Do you think they work to decrease forces transmitted to the camper? There's precious little out there on the internet about StableLoads for rugged 4WD travel with truck/campers. The Torklift tech/engineer I spoke with suggested we just get the lowers, and although he initially seemed to feel like we should get rid of the air bags, in the end he said it would be reasonable to keep the air bags but drop their pressure to no more than 30 lb. By the way, I think I  failed to mention previously that we also drop the pressure in our tires when we drive rough roads, we were at 35lb front and 45lb rear when we had our event.


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#18 Bad Habit

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 03:28 PM

I only have the uppers.  I did also end up adding airbags but that was mainly so I could level the tow bar when we tow the jeep along (also can help with minor leveling at camp sites).

 

I don't think they necessarily increase or decrease the load to the camper, it's just that they engage the helper springs sooner.  I guess that would effectively change the spring rate which would probably harshen impacts.  It's all a trade off, for rough roads, you want nice pliable springs.  Of course any appreciable weight then compresses them and you lose the softness and/or they flatten.  With softer springs you get more compression and extension which is great for wheel articulation but not so good for dealing with weight.  Stronger and more refined shocks would help mitigate the bouncyness.  Stiffer springs deal with the weight better but limit travel and impart those hard blows direct to the truck/camper.

 

As many of us, like myself, don't leave the camper on full time, it's not reasonable to have custom made springs for carrying the camper and gear weight along with tuned shocks. The StableLoads (and Timbrens) seem to be decent stop gaps to add more spring rate into the system without having to go custom.  They, in my mind, are a better option than airbags for rough roads.  They may or may not offset any sag, but do utilize the springs fuller to their capacity.

 

I would think once you are offroad, you would probably be better off with zero or what ever the lowest level of pressure in the bags can be.  In my mind it doesn't matter if the rear sags off road.  Much like lower tire pressure helps absorb impacts, taking the airbags out of the equation as much as possible will help.  Having them there for on-road travel (which tends to be most of what we have to do) is good for safety aspects.

 

This is helping me think through my set up.  For me I think better shocks at least in the rear would be beneficial.  Something adjustable that I could dial in more extension dampening.  The heavy 1 ton springs limit compression a lot on their own, I want to limit the upward extension a bit so the springboard effect is taken down a notch.


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#19 DoGMAtix

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 05:29 PM

Hmm. As long as drilling holes in the lower overload springs won't cause any problems (can't see that it would) I think it's worth trying the lower StableLoads. They're $325 with free shipping (Amazon Prime) and seem pretty easy to install if you follow drilling instructions carefully, so not a whole lot sacrificed if we don't end up using them. We may eventually do more to the suspension, particularly if we find we need more clearance for getting where we want to go, but that would be a lot more expensive and may be overkill.

The plan would be to engage the StableLoads and drop the air bag pressure down to minimum (5-10lb), where they presumably won't be doing anything at all. We could compare that with disengaged StableLoads and varying amounts of pressure in the air bags.


Edited by DoGMAtix, 09 December 2016 - 05:34 PM.

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#20 Bad Habit

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Posted 09 December 2016 - 05:55 PM

Wow, they sure are proud of them aren't they!

 

I think you have a good plan, depending on your springs you may not need to drill (which I'm sure is lot more fun than they make it look like)


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