28 replies to this topic

[craig333]

The Bundy's of course. If thats all then there's not much to worry about.

[idahoron]

I for one am not a fan of the ever increasing need to make everything outside of city limits a wilderness or a Monument. 

I watched as the canyon lands of Owyhee county in Idaho were turned into wilderness. That is a JOKE!!! the ranchers still drive into the "wilderness" with their trucks feeding cattle, checking cattle you name it. While the hunters are left to walk 5 miles one way just to get to the canyon before you start chuckar hunting. A 10 mile trip just to get to and back is HUGE. Throw in some hunting and that is not something that anyone can do on a regular basis if at all.  

I am sick of the fact that for the most part these things happen with little or no public input and little to no local government input. Shoving these regulations up our rear ends is getting a little tiresome. More and more area locked up and more and more people locked out.  

 

I know that some people like to jump on the ban the cattle band wagon. I understand but grazing either happens or the deserts burn.  I live a few miles from a burn that took over 600,000 acres and it burns off about every 10 years or so in that size.  Grazing helps to reduce fuel. I would love it if there were never another cow in my hunting areas but that can't happen unless there s a large scale return of the buffalo. 

[idahoron]

Good news! Bear's Ears, too! Any chance of getting the Owyhee country?

Thank you President Obama!

 

 

A lot of Owyhee county is already in wilderness. The people that live here don't want or need any more land locked up. 

[rando]

I think you are conflating wilderness and national monuments - there is no indication that Bears Ears is going to change its wilderness status.   The National Monument designation recognizes that this area is of specific cultural and archaeological value to non native and Native American communities alike.  It helps raise awareness of the special significance of the land, and through that alone will help protect these cultural resources.    This is particularly important in the Cedar Mesa area of the new national monument as looting and grave robbing has been rampant.   As far as I know no land is being 'locked up'.     This is also something that has been a long time coming, with lots of input from many parties - particularly the five tribes that came together to support this designation and will help with the management of the monument:

http://bearsearscoalition.org/

 

I am extremely happy to see these new National Monuments created and will put it on the agenda to go back to this area in 2017. 

[Grand Whazoo]

Sadly, I have a hard time being happy at the thought of more government regulating the use of the outdoors. The BLM already uses a very heavy hand when determining what to close. Lets' understand here that nothing will be reopened under the current environmental agenda. In response to having three thousand miles of roads CLOSED in the Coconino National Forest, about half of all forest roads,"The Center for Biological Diversity believes that too many roads remain open, according to spokeswoman Cyndi Tuell.

“Off-road vehicles in national forests are not only a blight on the landscape but also degrade the habitat of species already at the brink of extinction,” Tuell stated, citing the endangered Mexican spotted owl and Chiricahua leopard frog." Roads used for a generation are closed and ALL of our favorite camp spots in the Coconino are no longer available to us! These regulations should be a concern to everyone that uses the outdoors. Read on...Coconino loses 3 thousand miles of roads and you won't know which ones are closed without their official map, better know where you are in the forest!

 

I have seen BLM land supposedly locked up to developers, be sold. It's called "land swaps" and breaks up that public land under private ownership forever. Anza Borrego Desert had I think 30,000 acres as designated off-road. Yet some of the best parts were sold off in land swaps to developers and other areas closed due to several different reasons incl milk vetch.  I personally had a friend nearly decapitated riding a dirt bike on a trail, not see the barbed wire recently strung across a piece of "now" private land in the middle of a designated off road area. I took him to the hospital. Environmentalists want it back now and are bringing in more and more regulations.  They can and will do the same thing where ever possible. Then "they" put in improvements to cement their hold. There really needed to be a paved path to the Grosvenor Arch on the Staircase, or a beautiful new bathroom at the Bruneau Canyon Overlook. When I mentioned the issues of closures to a BLM official near Escalante Utah recently, she replied completely serious, "just wait till we pave Hole In The Rock Road." I believe it will happen, it happened to the Burr Trail. "Homogenized" is my favorite word for what is happening to the west.

 

Monument designation doesn't mean government control, it means more government control. Locking out and locking up are the same to me. Closing a dirt road means both at the same time. If I can't hike the miles to a particular area, places that I used to drive to, those places might as well be on the moon. And make no mistake, Monument title does mean that BLM can instigate "wilderness" and indeed lock us out. 

 

Those that complain of cattle, well at times I do as well, but that is what made the land available with roads and trails to begin with. And grazing allotments ARE adjacent to the permit holders private property i.e. ranch, yet they have to share that land with "us." We know there is an environmental/BLM push to retire grazing leases where ever possible. Then close the roads used by ranchers for generations.

 

Monument status begins a new complete set of studies and regulations put in place. I personally see it very very often. I have been to some well hidden ruins in the Bears Ears area and will bet that in the future you won't be able to drive anywhere close to them. I have also spent near a lifetime camping and hiking Cedar Mesa and I have never seen signs of looting or digging. I'm sure it does happen but to call it "rampant" doesn't fit with my experience.  

 

As to the Native American involvement in the management plan of the Bears Ears, watch out. Spending many many early years hiking and camping on Indian Reservations, that is no longer possible, period, in most cases. The ability to have casinos has stopped the need of outdoors related funds. The reservations of Northern Arizona and Utah with a few exceptions are completely off limits as are the very best parts of The White Mountain Apache Reservation. All have seen my bootprints, footsteps I can never follow again. Nor can you, your family or your friends. Personally, I'd love to hike the Upper and Lower Kaibito again, Starting Water Wash or Jackass Canyon, closed. 

 

My final thought for the moment, I have to go shovel MORE snow lol, is that making it a Monument now advertises it and it WILL be more crowded needing More regulations. Case in point, Fossil Creek Arizona. Once a not-so-well known area, environmentalists spent much time and effort to get the small Childs Power Plant along Fossil Creek to be decommissioned and the stream re-opened to full flow. I won't argue the closing of it here, but want to acknowledge the mass advertising of the stream and to tout the closure as a huge win for enviros. Since then Fossil Creek has become a quagmire of human garbage brought in by masses of people that don't  appreciate the outdoors but go to see the "new" creek. Now because of all the "new" traffic the road down from Strawberry is perpetually closed making it a one-way drive of 40 dirt miles from Camp Verde. It still won't stop the masses, it was made into a big deal, after all.

 

Now, the Bears Ears will be on everyones map, I guarantee it. I fully believe and will be willing to write this in stone, there will be more closures coming to the Bears Ears in the next few years. 

 

 

A lot of Owyhee county is already in wilderness. The people that live here don't want or need any more land locked up. 

Ditto x a bazillion

 

 

My very very last, for the moment hah. Indian Tribes, BLM, Forestry and Environmental groups are all the same to me in that they want to control "public"land. Close it to all but themselves and that is where the word "elitist" comes to mind, my mind. Now I can only hope that we agree to disagree!

 

Dave Rogers 

[Tuff Guy 62]

You nailed it Dave.

[idahoron]

Sadly, I have a hard time being happy at the thought of more government regulating the use of the outdoors. The BLM already uses a very heavy hand when determining what to close. Lets' understand here that nothing will be reopened under the current environmental agenda. In response to having three thousand miles of roads CLOSED in the Coconino National Forest, about half of all forest roads,"The Center for Biological Diversity believes that too many roads remain open, according to spokeswoman Cyndi Tuell.

“Off-road vehicles in national forests are not only a blight on the landscape but also degrade the habitat of species already at the brink of extinction,” Tuell stated, citing the endangered Mexican spotted owl and Chiricahua leopard frog." Roads used for a generation are closed and ALL of our favorite camp spots in the Coconino are no longer available to us! These regulations should be a concern to everyone that uses the outdoors. Read on...Coconino loses 3 thousand miles of roads and you won't know which ones are closed without their official map, better know where you are in the forest!

 

I have seen BLM land supposedly locked up to developers, be sold. It's called "land swaps" and breaks up that public land under private ownership forever. Anza Borrego Desert had I think 30,000 acres as designated off-road. Yet some of the best parts were sold off in land swaps to developers and other areas closed due to several different reasons incl milk vetch.  I personally had a friend nearly decapitated riding a dirt bike on a trail, not see the barbed wire recently strung across a piece of "now" private land in the middle of a designated off road area. I took him to the hospital. Environmentalists want it back now and are bringing in more and more regulations.  They can and will do the same thing where ever possible. Then "they" put in improvements to cement their hold. There really needed to be a paved path to the Grosvenor Arch on the Staircase, or a beautiful new bathroom at the Bruneau Canyon Overlook. When I mentioned the issues of closures to a BLM official near Escalante Utah recently, she replied completely serious, "just wait till we pave Hole In The Rock Road." I believe it will happen, it happened to the Burr Trail. "Homogenized" is my favorite word for what is happening to the west.

 

Monument designation doesn't mean government control, it means more government control. Locking out and locking up are the same to me. Closing a dirt road means both at the same time. If I can't hike the miles to a particular area, places that I used to drive to, those places might as well be on the moon. And make no mistake, Monument title does mean that BLM can instigate "wilderness" and indeed lock us out. 

 

Those that complain of cattle, well at times I do as well, but that is what made the land available with roads and trails to begin with. And grazing allotments ARE adjacent to the permit holders private property i.e. ranch, yet they have to share that land with "us." We know there is an environmental/BLM push to retire grazing leases where ever possible. Then close the roads used by ranchers for generations.

 

Monument status begins a new complete set of studies and regulations put in place. I personally see it very very often. I have been to some well hidden ruins in the Bears Ears area and will bet that in the future you won't be able to drive anywhere close to them. I have also spent near a lifetime camping and hiking Cedar Mesa and I have never seen signs of looting or digging. I'm sure it does happen but to call it "rampant" doesn't fit with my experience.  

 

As to the Native American involvement in the management plan of the Bears Ears, watch out. Spending many many early years hiking and camping on Indian Reservations, that is no longer possible, period, in most cases. The ability to have casinos has stopped the need of outdoors related funds. The reservations of Northern Arizona and Utah with a few exceptions are completely off limits as are the very best parts of The White Mountain Apache Reservation. All have seen my bootprints, footsteps I can never follow again. Nor can you, your family or your friends. Personally, I'd love to hike the Upper and Lower Kaibito again, Starting Water Wash or Jackass Canyon, closed. 

 

My final thought for the moment, I have to go shovel MORE snow lol, is that making it a Monument now advertises it and it WILL be more crowded needing More regulations. Case in point, Fossil Creek Arizona. Once a not-so-well known area, environmentalists spent much time and effort to get the small Childs Power Plant along Fossil Creek to be decommissioned and the stream re-opened to full flow. I won't argue the closing of it here, but want to acknowledge the mass advertising of the stream and to tout the closure as a huge win for enviros. Since then Fossil Creek has become a quagmire of human garbage brought in by masses of people that don't  appreciate the outdoors but go to see the "new" creek. Now because of all the "new" traffic the road down from Strawberry is perpetually closed making it a one-way drive of 40 dirt miles from Camp Verde. It still won't stop the masses, it was made into a big deal, after all.

 

Now, the Bears Ears will be on everyones map, I guarantee it. I fully believe and will be willing to write this in stone, there will be more closures coming to the Bears Ears in the next few years. 

 

 

Ditto x a bazillion

 

 

My very very last, for the moment hah. Indian Tribes, BLM, Forestry and Environmental groups are all the same to me in that they want to control "public"land. Close it to all but themselves and that is where the word "elitist" comes to mind, my mind. Now I can only hope that we agree to disagree!

 

Dave Rogers 

 

 

Well said Dave!!!!!

[PaulT]

My concern is the misuse of an act of Congress created in 1906 to prevent looting of archeological sites by quick action of the executive branch rather than suffer the possible losses that could incur while waiting for Congress to act. The intent of the act was to take the smallest amount of land possible to protect the site until it could be studied. It has more recently been used to create the equivalent of new parks without Congressional review and approval with public input for political purposes and without a Congressional appropriation to pay for the new park..

 

This is not to say that the land taken for this particular monument should not be created as a National Park but to ensure that the Constitution and the law be followed for the process. The Heritage Foundation has an article on the Antiquities Act of 1906. 

 

Just because you have a pen and a phone and limited time left......

 

Paul

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Folks, it's clear we have distinct differences in the opinions stated about this topic. It doesn't seem that anyone will be swayed by the additional arguments of others, and we have received complaints regarding each 'stance' in the thread. Our site rules state that political types of comments are permitted as long as they are not disruptive, and pertain to the specific topic. As it is becoming disruptive, the thread is now closed.