34 replies to this topic

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Wayne, I’m late to this conversation, but in addition to instructions, research which states have reciprocal agreements with the state that issues your permit.  I believe permits issued in Utah have the greatest number of reciprocal states. Some states may have no reciprocal agreements.

[AWG_Pics]

Consider pepper spray? 

 

I have shot all sorts of guns, pistols, rifles, shotguns, single shot to fully automatic beginning when I was 6 years old. In my 20's and early 30's I carried. Silly youth! But that has now been 30 years. I never carry at all anymore, ever. I have never found myself in a situation where the right answer was to reach for a gun.

 

Stay aware. Be vigilant. Read your surroundings. When the mood / atmosphere darkens -- GTFO immediately -- with no hesitation. Separation is your friend. 

 

I have declined requests to 'teach people how to shoot'. My first response when someone says they are thinking about getting a gun is to tell them to begin with hunter safety training, then seek an experienced qualified instructor. But then I tell them they don't want to have one, because if they ever have to use it, it will change who they are and alter their life for the rest of their life.

 

But if the OP is determined to get and carry a gun, my only advice is to never let anyone know you have it until you are shooting someone in their center of mass three or four times at least.

Edited by AWG_Pics, 04 January 2020 - 02:55 AM.

[Advmoto18]

To expand upon my previous post...

 

More thoughts having carried weapons in the military and as a civilian in various capacities.

 

1.  Learning/developing "situational awareness" can take years of practice.  Like most learned skills, maintaining good SA takes constant practice.  Techniques to reduce the likelihood of a hostile encounter are not learned overnight.  Further, once developed/practiced over time, they become part of your subconscious routine.  You don't even realize you're engaging in active measures. 

 

A bad dude will recognize you've "made him" and you will have taken the element of surprise away from him.  Bad dudes thrive on the element of surprise;  they do not want a "fair" encounter.  Taking the element of surprise away from a bad dude is the best way to avoid a life threatening encounter to begin with.  You constantly scan your environment out to a distance that gives you plenty of time to react (turn around, cross the street, go into a shop, you name the counter-measure) by simply making eye contact with the bad dude.  You can bank on the fact that he is scanning because he is looking for prey.  It is pretty easy to spot someone scanning faces as they walk down the sidewalk;  if you have developed the skill.  99.9% of people on the sidewalk are totally oblivious to their surroundings and people next to them, unless you get in their face.  Next time you're on a busy sidewalk just start looking at faces 10 yards away as you walk along.   Most folks (if not all) will be head down, mostly likely jabbering away on a cell phone. oblivious to anything or anyone around them.

 

2.  Do NOT Open Carry, even if allowed in your jurisdiction.  Open Carry is nothing more than someone wanting attention.  Please don't be THAT person!

 

3.  There are wolves and "sheeple" in every corner of the world.  Just because someone has been fortunate enough never to encounter a wolf doesn't mean your luck will continue to hold out.

 

4.  Even when being the most vigilant human on earth, you never know when an encounter with a bad dude will happen.  Bad dudes also get a vote during a hostile encounter.

 

5.  Firing a weapon numerous times for the sake of shooting at a hostile person is both irresponsible and illegal in many jurisdictions.  In every jurisdiction in the US when responding with deadly force, you may only use deadly force until the threat has been neutralized.  To continue blasting away after the threat has been neutralized is begging to be placed in legal jeopardy.

 

6.  Learning to shoot any firearm is a far cry from learning how to use a firearm in a life threatening encounter.  Do NOT believe the "gun play" you see on TV or in the movies is reality;  it most certainly IS NOT!  

 

7.  Even more important than learning to shoot a firearm is to take an honest introspection.  Not every one has the metal capacity to draw a weapon and kill another human being when justified.  We call that "mindset".  And it is OK if you do not possess the mindset to act with deadly force against another human being.  If you're on the fence about whether you can take the life of another human in self defense of your life or that of a loved one, ask yourself, "am I (or a loved one) OK (can I live with myself if I don't act) with being a victim regardless of the crime against me (them)?"  

 

8.  After you learn to shoot and obtain a conceal carry permit, you also need to learn how to use deadly force against another human.  A conceal carry class taught be a reputable instructor is a must IMO.  And recurrent training (several sessions a year with an instructor) should also be on your list of things to accomplish.

 

9.  Participating in USPSA, IPSC, IDPA or other sanctioned events can help hone one's shooting skills.  However, these "games" are not like 99.9% of the real world encounters by concealed carry permit holder with a hostile human in a life threatening event.  Learning/training to the differences is critically important.  It goes to the old adage, "train like you fight, fight like you train".  There are several very famous LEO shootouts (several decades ago) where officers died in the line of duty because their training regime did not address the "real world" but rather what was administratively required for the "square (training) range".  Sadly, a USPSA Grand Master was killed during a convenience store holdup because he used his "gaming" techniques rather than "real world" hostile encounter techniques.  The list goes on...

 

10.  Just because you are trained, armed and willing to defend your life or that of a loved one with a firearm does not make you a "bad a$$"!  You are simply a citizen exercising your Constitutional Right to defend your life, the life of a loved one, or that of a perfect stranger.

 

11.  If you do find yourself in a justified shooting, be mentally prepared for the consequences.  You will become intimately familiar with the justice system.  The first BIG legal question you must confront...do you want to talk to the police without your lawyer present?  Be prepared for the police to tell you have nothing to worry about to put you at ease and to talk to them without a lawyer present.  Sadly, there is plenty of mistrust between the legal experts sitting at the two opposite tables.  Equally sad, SCOTUS ruled in Frazier v. Cupp police may tell falsehoods (lie) during an interview.  That is something to take into account when discussing the event with police without a lawyer present.  If you need to ask the police if you need a lawyer, you probably should have asked for one at the outset.  No, I am not a lawyer.  

 

So I've gone from the OP asking how to learn to shoot through conceal carry, and if you find yourself in a justified shooting.  All are part of the entire process IF you want to learn how to shoot to defend yourself IMHO.

Edited by Advmoto18, 04 January 2020 - 03:18 PM.

[Advmoto18]

"Wayne, I’m late to this conversation, but in addition to instructions, research which states have reciprocal agreements with the state that issues your permit.  I believe permits issued in Utah have the greatest number of reciprocal states. Some states may have no reciprocal agreements."

Wandering Sagebrush's post

I couldn't get it to quote.

 

 

 

Steve brought up a very good point regarding traveling intrastate with a concealed handgun, reciprocity.

 

When traveling to another state using your concealed carry permit, be sure to check the state's attorney general's web site for specific laws, rules, regulations and latest information regarding carrying concealed and reciprocity.  Do not rely on private web sites when making your final decision whether to carry in another state.  

 

Some states changed their laws on 1 January.  So always check or call a state's AG web site or office, even with the slightest doubt.

 

Also, carrying your weapon (unloaded), mags (high capacity, ie 10+) and ammo in a lock box will not keep you legal in some states.  For instance, CO has a 10 round magazine limit.  Possession of hollow point ammunition in NJ is prohibited.  Again, the state's AG"s office or web site will have the latest information.

 

It is essential to remain a law abiding citizen, even in jurisdictions that "infringes upon" your Constitutional rights.

Edited by Advmoto18, 06 January 2020 - 07:27 PM.

[teledork]

Consider pepper spray? 

 

I would not consider the little canisters of pepper spray, good for only 10 feet, to be an alternative to a firearm. Bear spray is a little better at 30 feet but still rather ineffective against an armed human. 

 

Advmoto - best advice I've read since my father and arms instructor passed away. Situational awareness is key. So is thinking it all through BEFORE you choose to carry.  

 

As a woman I know, unfortunately from experience, that the greatest risk of violence was sleeping next to me. But I am long past my sell by date and have no dependents but my dog. If someone really wants to take me out I am not sure I want to face the consequences of taking them out first and I am not sure I want to live in a world where that kind of thought process is necessary.  

Edited by teledork, 04 January 2020 - 11:42 PM.

[Advmoto18]

Teledork...

 

I'm sorry to read, or infer from your post, that you are a victim of domestic violence.

 

I hope you are now well and safe!

 

I learned (from my father) at a very early age females are to be respected and treasured.  Sadly, some males do not learn that concept. 

 

I had to deal with domestic violence first hand with some Marines and it was an unforgettable, eye opening experience for me.

Edited by Advmoto18, 05 January 2020 - 02:32 AM.

[Adventurer]

I would take a class from someone with experience with the law if there is one, maybe a police officer that also offers training.  I wouldn't expect a military/ex-military to be an expert in the "legal" use of lethal force in any given jurisdiction.  They may be an expert with actually firing the weapon or killing someone, but most military folks I know that offer training, or have gone into law enforcement, are ex-John Rambos.  They teach because it's tacti-cool.  Most understand offensive tactics, but less so defensive tactics, or at least teach that way.  Maybe I'm just cynical, but jeez, some of these people are just really bad jokes when it comes to teaching this stuff.

 

By the way, legal opinions are going to be different depending on the state because each state has their own rules (federalism).  Use of force will have different rules, state-dependent.  Best to get training in your state and then read some definitions for the states you'll travel.

 

There is no one right rule.  You'll be tried by 12 people just like you, who will learn most of the legal definitions while in the courtroom and will bring a bunch of pre-conceived notions learned from television.

 

Bottom line, if you really think you're going to be killed, you're probably justified, but not always.

 

I will say, situational awareness is probably the most underutilized skill in self-defense.  Learn to look up and around once in a while and you'll be safer than 99% of the rest of the population.

 

Also, you didn't ask about open carry, but because it was brought up by other(s).  There are plenty of theories out there and again, not one right answer.  Do officers open carry?  Do we put little blinking lights in our cars to signify an alarm?  Do we put up signs that say beware of dog?  Or alarm company signs in our yards?  Do you know why?  It is to deter crime, to send the bad guy to the next house, the next car, the next easy mark.  Seems one of the only defensive things we tell "civilians" to conceal is a firearm.  A bad guy that confronts someone open carrying has already made the choice that they are willing to take a life or lose theirs.  Most criminals are opportunists, they are looking for the easy mark and will not confront the fool open carrying.  That's why situational awareness is so important.  It's also why open carry shouldn't just be dismissed as being "that guy" or someone looking for attention.  The person telling everyone to look at them so that they don't have to defend themselves.  Anyway, there isn't one right answer to the question about concealed or open carry, just educate yourself and do your best.

 

 

 

ETA: short-version.  Learn the legalities from someone that understands the law.  Learn to shoot from someone that knows how to shoot.  Practice.

Edited by Adventurer, 05 January 2020 - 03:07 AM.

[PaulT]

Check out this organization for information related to concealed carry, nationally. They offer online training in responsible use of firearms, and offer legal services insurance in the event one had to use a firearm. Their resources include a reciprocity licensing map.

 

USCCA

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com

 

Paul

[smlobx]

My thanks to the moderators for allowing a rational discussion about this complicated question.

 

I’m in 100% agreement with Advmoto’s comments. Having taken multiple classes on various facets of gun ownership and usage is a very worthwhile endeavor.

Although it’s not normally discussed I believe the vast majority of RVers carry from my experiences but as Bill stated this is something that is not publically displayed.

 

Another very good website that displays reciprocity as far as CCP’s are concerned is this one:

 

https://www.handgunlaw.us/

Edited by smlobx, 05 January 2020 - 10:46 PM.

[Durango1]

"Although it’s not normally discussed I believe the vast majority of RVers carry from my experience..." I guess it depends on the  definition of "carry".  I have never gotten a CC permit for my daily activities since Durango, CO is a really small and mostly safe town with a fast response police force. (IMO the best option is always 1) locked doors, 2) dial 911/wait for the cops and then 3) if all else fails a short barreled 12 gauge.)  

 

However, given the isolated and often without cell reception places most of us camp the logistical details change. So I always 1) camp with the snout of the truck facing out, 2) keep the truck and camper locked at all times and 3) (if there is no other alternative such as 'running away') keep a 16 shot 9mm in a console gun safe during the day and in an easily accessible drawer at night. (No kids camp with us.)

 

So in this sense I guess I'm an "RVer that carries"...  

Edited by Durango1, 06 January 2020 - 01:27 AM.