89 replies to this topic

[Wallowa]

Thanks Paul for the local vendor reference--assume that is Springfield OR...still would like clear confirmation that the Zamp controller will not "do the job" of a Li battery vs. AGM...may have to do some of my own research...but will keep watching what other members offer on this post...

Brad

p.s. yeah, the H Tavern was one of our spots before Covid...assume you are a stone's throw from the Tav.

  Brad...

 

Don't know your needs...how much solar you have, how much battery AH you will need, how much you will be off grid and not driving frequently..but here is what I think I know: Li batteries can be charged quicker and more often than an AGM, the Zamp ZS30 that it appears you have as well as I do does not have a specific Li profile...Zamp non-Li can perhaps have a sufficient charging and float profile to support a Li battery; but not an optimal profile for the Li...how efficient that is I don't know, can it damage an Li battery, I don't know..

 

All that aside you will get more juice into your battery [s] for a given amount of solar on the roof with a MPPT than with a PWM controller; or so I believe...the Victron MPPT will also support the Li charge and maintenance profile...

 

By-the-by...I have decided to go with a single 100AH Battle Born battery, a Victron 100/30 to replace my Zamp controller, add a DC/DC charger with 4g wiring, change out the SAE roof plug to an MC4 and put my two solar [160/170w] panels in series rather than parallel as they are now...I have a Victron 712 Smart for SOC... all this after some great input by forum members...

 

My LiFePo4 100AH will at a minimum give me 80-90AH of power to use; my two 75AH AGMs at best can deliver 75 AH of power and the most I have used after long off-grid stays with only the Z160w panel was perhaps 50+AH...with new panel [170w], DC/DC charger for more complete and quicker charge from truck and MPPT controller, my Li BB can be recharged quickly if needed and the SOC maintained at a higher level than previously...doubt with new panel the AH used will drop very quickly if at all.

 

But, hey, I could be wrong!  

 

Phil

 

Ps...Two thumbs up for AMSolar

Edited by Wallowa, 12 January 2021 - 10:58 PM.

[PaulT]

I live between the two taverns but haven’t been to either one in a year or so.   Or much of anywhere else for that matter. This is getting very tiring. Especially missing my favorite Asian & Mexican foods. Sigh.  
 

This would be easier to take if I thought it was more science based than ideology based.

 

Paul

[wicked1]

Umm.. Not sure what you're talking about.  The people staying in are using science.  The people not wearing masks are going by ideology.  Pretty simple.  The facts are..  There is a disease out there that makes some people die.  If you care and don't want to spread it, don't go out.  That's the science. 

OTOH...   I work for a living, and find some of the comments here hilarious.  The world is still turning.  All of us who aren't retired are out in the sht every day.  We're going to stores, restaurants, work.  Have a sick co-worker coughing on my back.  Have sick customers coming up and yelling in my face. 

 

(Not to diminish it, but I had covid in December, and wouldn't have even known if I wasn't tested.  My mother in law was sick, so we all got tested and had it.  Otherwise, the three of us in my house wouldn't have known.. Had maybe 2 days of feeling lethargic, but that was it)

[scappoosebrad]

  Brad...

 

Don't know your needs...how much solar you have, how much battery AH you will need, how much you will be off grid and not driving frequently..but here is what I think I know: Li batteries can be charged quicker and more often than an AGM, the Zamp ZS30 that it appears you have as well as I do does not have a specific Li profile...Zamp non-Li can perhaps have a sufficient charging and float profile to support a Li battery; but not an optimal profile for the Li...how efficient that is I don't know, can it damage an Li battery, I don't know..

 

All that aside you will get more juice into your battery [s] for a given amount of solar on the roof with a MPPT than with a PWM controller; or so I believe...the Victron MPPT will also support the Li charge and maintenance profile...

 

By-the-by...I have decided to go with a single 100AH Battle Born battery, a Victron 100/30 to replace my Zamp controller, add a DC/DC charger with 4g wiring, change out the SAE roof plug to an MC4 and put my two solar [160/170w] panels in series rather than parallel as they are now...I have a Victron 712 Smart for SOC... all this after some great input by forum members...

 

My LiFePo4 100AH will at a minimum give me 80-90AH of power to use; my two 75AH AGMs at best can deliver 75 AH of power and the most I have used after long off-grid stays with only the Z160w panel was perhaps 50+AH...with new panel [170w], DC/DC charger for more complete and quicker charge from truck and MPPT controller, my Li BB can be recharged quickly if needed and the SOC maintained at a higher level than previously...doubt with new panel the AH used will drop very quickly if at all.

 

But, hey, I could be wrong!  

 

Phil

 

Ps...Two thumbs up for AMSolar?

Phil,

thanks for your info...some of it I understand, some of it I don't... still sounds like some "unknowns" about the Zamp controller we got from the factory...no intent now to expand our solar panels beyond the factory installed 160 I believe...guess I need to dive in more to better understand how best to manage all the Li battery advantages...again "what controller options are available to replace my 2 6volt AGMs with 1 12 v Li battery and will the Zamp controller work or not?"  Am trying to navigate how to minimally upgrade yet enjoy the added capacity of the Li 12 volt if/when a replacement is needed" ... yeah, into my own planning process...wonder if a call to AM Solar might help me better understand the options?  thanks again for  your comments.

Brad

[rando]

If you guys can post the specs that are available on your ZAMP charge controller, we can tell you if it will work.   The numbers should be in the specifications table in the owners manual.   There is a pretty good chance your existing controller will work. 

 

If there is a 'GEL' battery type, it will probably work, but we need the specs to really know. 

[Wallowa]

If you guys can post the specs that are available on your ZAMP charge controller, we can tell you if it will work.   The numbers should be in the specifications table in the owners manual.   There is a pretty good chance your existing controller will work. 

 

If there is a 'GEL' battery type, it will probably work, but we need the specs to really know. 

==============================================================================

Rando,

 

Help me with this...Zamp controllers we have are PWMs; Victron is MPPT Controller....forgetting specs/profile; is there a measurable advantage when using the MPPT and not a PWM?  Why?  And 'how much'?  I am asking about WH from panels and WH into the battery [s] for panels in parallel and in series.

 

All this is vague to me.

 

Thanks...Phil 

 

PS...Just found a reference article....but for our FWC systems does all this make a PWM or MMPT the most effective at capturing solar energy and keeping the most power going to the batteries...thanks.

 

https://cleanenergyp...rg/pwm-vs-mppt/

Edited by Wallowa, 13 January 2021 - 09:40 PM.

[rando]

Yes there is a measurable advantage to MPPT over PWM.    There is no simple answer on how big the advantage is - it is highly dependent on the specifics of your panels, the environment your usage and batteries.    The range is around 10 - 35% more power from MPPT over PWM.  

 

The explanation is complicated.   With a PWM charge controller, the battery sets the voltage and you get what every current your panel can provide.   So in the example we discussed earlier of two panels with a 15A Imp and Vmp of 21V, under ideal circumstances you will get 15A * 14V = 210W through a PWM controller.   With MPPT, the panel voltage is decoupled from the battery voltage and the controller will try and find the combination of Amp and Volts where the panel produces the most power, called the Maximum Power Point Tracking (thus MPPT).   In the above example an MPPT could run the panel at 15A and 21V  (315W) which it would convert to 22.5A at 14V for the battery.    This example is under 'ideal conditions' and in the real world it neither the total power, or the difference will be that high.

 

In your case, where you are willing (excited?) to upgrade and do the work, an upgrade to a Victron MPPT controller would be worth it. 

 

For Brad, who would prefer to use his existing equipment, chances are he doesn't need to upgrade.  On that front, I did find the manual for the current ZAMP 30A, and the only difference between the LiFePO4 setting and AGM setting is the float voltage (13.4V vs 13.6V).   Assuming to older ZAMP has the same AGM settings as the new one, then there is really no significant issue with using the AGM setting with LiFePO4.    Lithium doesn't need to be float charged (hence the lower float voltage) so if you were to turn the solar charger off when the camper is not being used, the end result would be about the same. 

[scappoosebrad]

Yes there is a measurable advantage to MPPT over PWM. There is no simple answer on how big the advantage is - it is highly dependent on the specifics of your panels, the environment your usage and batteries. The range is around 10 - 35% more power from MPPT over PWM.

The explanation is complicated. With a PWM charge controller, the battery sets the voltage and you get what every current your panel can provide. So in the example we discussed earlier of two panels with a 15A Imp and Vmp of 21V, under ideal circumstances you will get 15A * 14V = 210W through a PWM controller. With MPPT, the panel voltage is decoupled from the battery voltage and the controller will try and find the combination of Amp and Volts where the panel produces the most power, called the Maximum Power Point Tracking (thus MPPT). In the above example an MPPT could run the panel at 15A and 21V (315W) which it would convert to 22.5A at 14V for the battery. This example is under 'ideal conditions' and in the real world it neither the total power, or the difference will be that high.

In your case, where you are willing (excited?) to upgrade and do the work, an upgrade to a Victron MPPT controller would be worth it.

For Brad, who would prefer to use his existing equipment, chances are he doesn't need to upgrade. On that front, I did find the manual for the current ZAMP 30A, and the only difference between the LiFePO4 setting and AGM setting is the float voltage (13.4V vs 13.6V). Assuming to older ZAMP has the same AGM settings as the new one, then there is really no significant issue with using the AGM setting with LiFePO4. Lithium doesn't need to be float charged (hence the lower float voltage) so if you were to turn the solar charger off when the camper is not being used, the end result would be about the same.

Rando...
specs page says:
2-6: Absorption charging voltage @ 25C
--LTO type battery: 14.0 / +/-0.2
--Gel type battery: 14.1// +/-0.2
--LiFePO4 battery: 14.4// "
--AGM type battery (default setting): 14.4 // +/- 0.2
--WET type battery: 14.7// "
--Calcium type battery: 14.9 // "

In the "Features" page, the manual says: "Advanced MCU control pulse width modulated (PWM) technology, igh efficiency operation. Target for LiFePO4, LTO, Gel, AGM, Conventional lead-acid(WET) and Calcium Batteries"

So it would appear that the factory Zamp controller in our Fleet would work...the manual also gives instructions on how to "reset" for the type of battery installed (again defaults to AGM)...looks pretty simple...

Happy to pass on any more info I might have missed from the Specs or manual...

What do you think? looks like the Zamp can work?

Brad

Edited by scappoosebrad, 13 January 2021 - 11:53 PM.

[rando]

If those are the specs for your controller then to looks like it will explicitly support LiFePO4 -just change the battery type to LiFePO4. 

However there is an older version of the same controller, that does not have an LiFePO4 mode (which is the one Wallowa has).  If it turns out you have the older model, then either the AGM or GEL setting will work for an LiFePO4 battery.    The most important thing is NOT to use the WET or CALCIUM settings, any of the other settings will be OK. 

[Wallowa]

Rando...
specs page says:
2-6: Absorption charging voltage @ 25C
--LTO type battery: 14.0 / +/-0.2
--Gel type battery: 14.1// +/-0.2
--LiFePO4 battery: 14.4// "
--AGM type battery (default setting): 14.4 // +/- 0.2
--WET type battery: 14.7// "
--Calcium type battery: 14.9 // "

In the "Features" page, the manual says: "Advanced MCU control pulse width modulated (PWM) technology, igh efficiency operation. Target for LiFePO4, LTO, Gel, AGM, Conventional lead-acid(WET) and Calcium Batteries"

So it would appear that the factory Zamp controller in our Fleet would work...the manual also gives instructions on how to "reset" for the type of battery installed (again defaults to AGM)...looks pretty simple...

Happy to pass on any more info I might have missed from the Specs or manual...

What do you think? looks like the Zamp can work?

Brad

  Brad, 

 

Rando gave a really good description on what controllers are capable of what...and what their relative efficiency is at gleaning power.

 

Here is the deal...you have a '16 Fleet, right?  I have a '16 Hawk...our Zamp ZS30 controllers should be identical...

 

The Specs above I also have in a copy of a Zamp controller manual but they are not for my vintage ['16] Zamp controller...I have the '16 version of the manual and LiFePo4 or LTO are not mentioned....

 

Simple way to find out what battery types your controller is programed for....push the button "Battery Type" on the face of your controller and it will show you what battery types it is programed for...

 

Either way like Rando said your controller will handle LiFePo4 with an AGM profile...I assume that the LiFePo4 specific profile would be more accurate in matching the Li specs but I guess the difference is not a significant issue..

 

Phil