34 replies to this topic

[ski3pin]

That's nuts!

Welcome to our world. That photo is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Mighty Dodge Ram]

California requires that you take a “test” before issuing annual fire permits...we all do that, right? I’ve watched it getting worse over the years and this past year has surpassed all previous combined. Unfortunately, I now endorse camping permits with a passed LNT test along with fees at each site/area. Communication, education, enforcement. 

[teledork]

California requires that you take a “test” before issuing annual fire permits...we all do that, right? I’ve watched it getting worse over the years and this past year has surpassed all previous combined. Unfortunately, I now endorse camping permits with a passed LNT test along with fees at each site/area. Communication, education, enforcement. 

I encountered a couple last summer who claimed to have a  permit which allowed them to have a campfire in a dispersed location because they had a portable fire pit. They didn't even have a shovel. Apparently you don't even have to be literate to pass that campfire "test". 

 

I have also sighed the big sigh and decided that that there needs to be a dispersed LNT camping permit that requires education, a real live in person test and an annual license fee - like a hunting license. But none of this will be worth anything unless there is enforcement and substantial penalties for violation. Impound their camping gear.  Can't get a license for a certain number of years. They can go to amusement parks instead. Or stay home, watch TV and ponder how their willful ignorance and self entitled attitude got them on the camping blacklist. 

 

But it is still totally baffling to me that some people are so incredibly stupid/uncaring/sociopathic that they will build a campfire right up against a tree and/or leave uneaten food, ice chests, tables and chairs, tents, clothing and plain old garbage in their campsite when they go. Oh yeah - I almost forgot about the kiddie swimming pool. And the condoms. And the sanitary napkins (just picked up one of those along the river yesterday - oh yuuuukkkkk - )

 

I had (note the past tense) a friend. After three occasions of her digging a hole and cr**ing within sight of the the camper I told her I would not camp with her anymore. Her defense was "I forgot". I asked if she also dropped trou and dumped in her living room. She thought I was joking. She was wrong.

[PaulT]

Need to be careful what one wishes for. Requiring a license to camp is a big step toward implementing camping limits: personal, annual, location, or even lifetime camping limits not related to clean, safe, responsible care of the land.

 

Paul

[teledork]

Need to be careful what one wishes for. Requiring a license to camp is a big step toward implementing camping limits: personal, annual, location, or even lifetime camping limits not related to clean, safe, responsible care of the land.

 

Paul

As I said - I sighed a big sigh when I concluded that some kind of administration may be necessary. To be very, very clear I have contemplated what kind of effect such a plan could have on my recreation but the lack of administration is having a tremendously  adverse effect on my ability to camp AND the safety of my home from human caused wildfire. I think those of us who live right next to public land have a very valid reason to want more enforcement. 

 

My camping became very limited last summer due to crowds (and more than a little apprehension after being harassed) so I am not sure how a license could make anything any worse. I have a hard time going so far as fearing "lifetime" limits (whatever that means) and I'm not sure what you mean by "personal" camping limits but there are already location, duration and annual limits which vary slightly between BLM and Forest Service land. 

 

I have been required to get a wilderness permit to backpack  for more than 40 years now and they are no longer free of cost. I have yet to experience any limits other than the rare occasion (once) when a walk in permit was not available for our trailhead of choice. Trip length is limited to 14 days with special permits available for thru-hikers. 

 

And while I have not hunted since my husband passed I had to take a Hunter Safety Course and pay for an annual license and tags that are specific to location and season. 

 

I guess I fail to see any reason why a license to camp would specifically become 1984-ish when there is more than a little precedent for requiring licenses to recreate (as also pointed out by goinoregon on the previous page)

 

After my 60 some odd years of life I have absolutely zero faith in the ability of the "shallow end of the gene pool" * to suddenly and spontaneously  develop human decency and common sense. I suppose this can be filed under "why we can't have nice things".  

 

*song by the Austin Lounge Lizards 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Yes the Lizards song fits a lot of people.

Frank

[Foy]

I find your observations to be sharp and your opinions reasonable and rational.  And I wholeheartedly agree that requiring permits without enforcement is an uphill battle, at best.  I find that the individuals who want to backpack in permit-required wilderness areas and those who want to hunt and fish within legal limits are different sorts of individuals than the individuals my wife and I experienced the antics of in remote parts of Montana last summer.  I don't know what it might take for a lot of those clowns to straighten up.  The sad truth to this  Registered Cynic, also  60-odd years of age, is that we have a justice system based on voluntary compliance.  If and when the mass of chosen lawbreakers reaches critical mass, there aren't enough LEOs on the planet to stop them. More rules, permits, and fees might merely penalize the law abiding group and do little or nothing to stop the hordes.

 

Foy

[PaulT]

John Adams, the second president of the United States, prophetically wrote in 1798:

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion….Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.

 

This is not a new concern.

 

Paul

[ski3pin]

A personal observation I'll add from this past spring and summer. It was the beginning of the Covid crisis. Many of our local Federal Land Management Agencies were not even out in the field.  This decision was also based on the assumption that the public would stay home as recommended. Those that were, were told to not make contact with the public for personal safety in regards to Covid. There was absolutely no enforcement and issues massively spiraled out of control.

 

We all know what happened.

[teledork]

John Adams, the second president of the United States, prophetically wrote in 1798:

 

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion….Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.

This is not a new concern.

 

Paul

Unfortunately John  Adams was right. And what Foy said, "More rules, permits, and fees might merely penalize the law abiding group and do little or nothing to stop the hordes."

 

But doing nothing will do nothing to stop the hordes either. 

 

I think it is worth adding that I believe the harassment I was subject to last summer was a bit of vigilante behavior. The locals were sick of the hordes - the reason they kept demanding to know where I lived. If nothing is done by the land managers to educate/regulate the idiots I suspect there will be more and more of this. I should not have to be afraid of driving an hour down the road to camp and kayak because I may be mistaken for an "outsider". Or let me try and put this a little more vividly - do you want to HAVE to carry a firearm and be ready to shoot a couple of dads in front of their kids because the dads are holding you hostage until you adequately cower and cry and try your best to say something they approve of?  Yeah - I know this is a different issue - but not entirely. 

 

I also want to clarify something else:

 

I DO NOT  "wish" for layer after layer after layer of regulation and permits and fees.

 

I DO wish for basic human decency and common sense but it seems that ship has sailed. 

 

edit to add: I said John Adams was right but I believe the "religious" aspect misses the nail - 

 

to paraphrase something an atheist  friend sent to me recently: we are not suffering from a lack of religion, we are suffering from a lack of empathy

Edited by teledork, 23 February 2021 - 10:41 PM.