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Battleborn - charge settings


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#11 rando

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 05:50 PM

The settings in the built in BMS are usually designed to prevent rapid damage, not to provide the optimized values.   Think of them more as circuit breakers than regulators, they trip to prevent damage, but that usually means something else is not right.   In generally use, your BMS shouldn't really need to do anything as the rest of your equipment is providing the 'optimized' values that are well away from the BMS values.    So set 'optimized' values on your charger (which I would argue would be a bulk charge around 14V, float around 13.3V) then set 'oh sh#$#t' values on the BMS, max voltage 14.5V, min voltage 11.5V, min temp -5C etc.

 

As for charging the battery, there is really no great way to stop the charge at 80%, and to some degree no reason to do so.  However charging above 14V doesn't buy you much of any extra capacity and drives your cells out of balance. 

 

On my LifePO4 install I can monitor the individual cell voltages, and what I have noticed is that during charging, once the battery voltage gets above ~3.45 - 3.5V  per cell (13.8 - 14.0V for the pack) the battery is almost fully charged (~ 95% SOC based on the BMV and BMS) and at this point what mostly happens is that the cells get out of balance - that is some end up at 3.53V while others are at 3.47V.  Below this they all stay very well balanced, typically less than 10mv between cells, so I typically cut the charge off at 13.8V, or 14.0V if I expect to be using the batteries hard. 

 

As for the charge for storage - there is some evidence that storing lithium batteries fully charged slightly shortens their lifetime, thus the recommendation to store at 30 - 60% SOC.   On the flip side, the same studies said storage temperature had a much greater effect. Secondly, if you have a built in 'dumb' BMS (like battleborn) then it is always drawing a little bit of current from the batteries, and by starting at 100% SOC, you have more time before the BMS draws the batteries down too low, albeit this is probably years.


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#12 ri-f

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 06:32 PM

The settings in the built in BMS are usually designed to prevent rapid damage, not to provide the optimized values.   Think of them more as circuit breakers than regulators, they trip to prevent damage, but that usually means something else is not right.   In generally use, your BMS shouldn't really need to do anything as the rest of your equipment is providing the 'optimized' values that are well away from the BMS values...

 

...On my LifePO4 install I can monitor the individual cell voltages, and what I have noticed is that during charging, once the battery voltage gets above ~3.45 - 3.5V  per cell (13.8 - 14.0V for the pack) the battery is almost fully charged (~ 95% SOC based on the BMV and BMS) and at this point what mostly happens is that the cells get out of balance - that is some end up at 3.53V while others are at 3.47V.  Below this they all stay very well balanced, typically less than 10mv between cells, so I typically cut the charge off at 13.8V, or 14.0V if I expect to be using the batteries hard....

Rando, I like your BMS circuit breaker analogy. Well put. Also, you appear to have a more sophisticated feedback and monitoring system in place, to help analyze performance. Did you custom build these capabilities into your LiFePo4 and which meter(s) are you using to read these measurements?

 

Rich
 


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#13 rando

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 07:18 PM

I built my own LiFePO4 battery a number of years ago:

https://www.wanderth...mper-batteries/

 

I upgraded that system to use a bluetooth BMS that provides all the details and lets you configure all the settings:

https://www.lithiumb...nstant-current/


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#14 ri-f

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 07:44 PM

Very cool, thanks for that.

Rich
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#15 ri-f

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 08:14 AM

Over the past 1.5 years I have been charging my BB using a C-TEK MUS 4.3 and nothing else. Once fully charged I will disconnect and when I head out to camp withing several weeks or sometimes months my SOC is quite often at 99%. I will go out for usually 4-5 days although I have been out for 21 days straight with no recharging at all. The only current drawn is for my 80 L National Luna.

ramblinChet - I have a 45qt Engel fridge-freezer, which I run on the most minimal energy-efficient setting, for keeping food cool enough to not go bad for a week, and to have a cold beer on a hot day. The very best I can do in the summer is average 0.75 amps/hr or 18 amp/hrs/day. With a 100 AH LiFePO4 battery, fully charged, I have gone 4-5 days without a solar or B2B charge (I was parked in the forest under a heavy tree canopy with no sun), while running my wildly-efficient Engel 45, 24/7. How were you able to get 21 days without any recharging of any kind, while running your 80L National Luna without a 400 AH battery bank? What's the secret to your success? : )

 

Rich
 


Edited by ri-f, 19 February 2021 - 08:17 AM.

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- 2001 Cummins 2500 quad cab 4x4 turbo diesel; NV4500 5-spd manual transmission; CM aluminum flatbed, '20 FWC Hawk shell - hybrid buildout.  https://ian-frese-of...r.blogspot.com/

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#16 kmcintyre

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 11:53 AM

The settings in the built in BMS are usually designed to prevent rapid damage, not to provide the optimized values.   Think of them more as circuit breakers than regulators, they trip to prevent damage, but that usually means something else is not right.   In generally use, your BMS shouldn't really need to do anything as the rest of your equipment is providing the 'optimized' values that are well away from the BMS values.    So set 'optimized' values on your charger (which I would argue would be a bulk charge around 14V, float around 13.3V) then set 'oh sh#$#t' values on the BMS, max voltage 14.5V, min voltage 11.5V, min temp -5C etc.

 

As for charging the battery, there is really no great way to stop the charge at 80%, and to some degree no reason to do so.  However charging above 14V doesn't buy you much of any extra capacity and drives your cells out of balance. 

 

On my LifePO4 install I can monitor the individual cell voltages, and what I have noticed is that during charging, once the battery voltage gets above ~3.45 - 3.5V  per cell (13.8 - 14.0V for the pack) the battery is almost fully charged (~ 95% SOC based on the BMV and BMS) and at this point what mostly happens is that the cells get out of balance - that is some end up at 3.53V while others are at 3.47V.  Below this they all stay very well balanced, typically less than 10mv between cells, so I typically cut the charge off at 13.8V, or 14.0V if I expect to be using the batteries hard. 

 

As for the charge for storage - there is some evidence that storing lithium batteries fully charged slightly shortens their lifetime, thus the recommendation to store at 30 - 60% SOC.   On the flip side, the same studies said storage temperature had a much greater effect. Secondly, if you have a built in 'dumb' BMS (like battleborn) then it is always drawing a little bit of current from the batteries, and by starting at 100% SOC, you have more time before the BMS draws the batteries down too low, albeit this is probably years.

 

Good analogy!  The system I built uses a DC-to-DC charger and BMS that are totally configurable so I'll have to check the values again.  We're getting ready to head out on a long road / camping trip so it'll be interesting to watch the values.  


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#17 kmcintyre

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 11:57 AM

I built my own LiFePO4 battery a number of years ago:

https://www.wanderth...mper-batteries/

 

I upgraded that system to use a bluetooth BMS that provides all the details and lets you configure all the settings:

https://www.lithiumb...nstant-current/

 

I recently built my own LifePO4 battery system, etc. with new cells, BMS and DC-to-DC charger.  If anyone would like my "cheat sheet" send me your email.  It's really where I sourced my cells, etc. with some links, etc.  There are some great sources of info (overwhelming) and my write-up may or may not help but it'll get you going.  BTW, to build my 120ah battery pack, etc. with an "expensive" DC-to-DC charger was about $460.  The charger was about $164 of that total so it can be done fairly inexpensively and not really that difficult.  


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#18 ri-f

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 05:02 PM

I recently built my own LifePO4 battery system, etc. with new cells, BMS and DC-to-DC charger.  If anyone would like my "cheat sheet" send me your email.  It's really where I sourced my cells, etc. with some links, etc.  There are some great sources of info (overwhelming) and my write-up may or may not help but it'll get you going.  BTW, to build my 120ah battery pack, etc. with an "expensive" DC-to-DC charger was about $460.  The charger was about $164 of that total so it can be done fairly inexpensively and not really that difficult.  

Once again, very cool, and inexpensive by comparison. Interested to learn how it goes afer your long road trip.
 


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#19 kmcintyre

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 09:15 PM

Once again, very cool, and inexpensive by comparison. Interested to learn how it goes afer your long road trip.
 

 

I'll let you know.  We've used it on a few 3-4 days trips and no issues.  Still dialing in the charging, etc. but no issues so far.  This trip will be longer and taking my solar panels w/ LifePO4 controller as we'll be off the grid the whole time and not moving much.


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#20 ri-f

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 09:38 PM

...The 21-day excursion I spoke of earlier stretched from mid-December into early January with a wide range of temperatures. It was quite chilly most of the time and there were nights where we dipped into the teens...

Okay, gotcha. I was thinking you had to be in winter conditions with that low amp/hr average, where the fridge doesn't see a large temp differential and hardly cycles. Nice. Thanks for that. Your hot weather stats are more in line with the typical efficiency curves. Still, it appears from your description to be a very efficient fridge and a great combo with the BB. I get similar performance with the Engel and BB - no complaints..

 

Rich
 


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- 2001 Cummins 2500 quad cab 4x4 turbo diesel; NV4500 5-spd manual transmission; CM aluminum flatbed, '20 FWC Hawk shell - hybrid buildout.  https://ian-frese-of...r.blogspot.com/

- 2004 Jeep TJ - Rubicon

 

 

 





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