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#11 rando

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 10:30 PM

Do you have any actual data to back these claims up?    From the research I have seen, the lifecycle emissions (which includes manufacturing and disposal) are generally lower for electric and hybrid vehicles and can be substantially lower where the electric grid has significant renewable energy.  

 

I am looking at getting a Tesla in the near future, they seem like fun, sporty and efficient vehicles to me, not an 'abysmal failures'. 


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#12 buckland

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:28 PM

Ya just wanted a chit chat about something new wave.... certainly don't want to argue about it. Hydrogen is the cleanest and... someone just made a semi soiid paste of hydrogen so like a solid fuel... no pressurized booms!... somebody will make it work...Toyota has been betting on it in steady research.  Anyway.... glad this forum is here and the exchange of ideas...expertise ... help to make the travels fun. As my dad used to say.... "gonna be dead a long time.... might as well be nice while here such a short time"


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#13 Wandering Sagebrush

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Posted 07 April 2021 - 11:47 PM

Folks, let’s focus on the pros and cons of the technology and not our opinions about the role of the Government or any other entities that we believe may or may not have a role in developing the proposed trucks.  


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#14 rando

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 12:10 AM

I am a little mixed on hydrogen as fuel source.  Part of the reason it was pushed so hard last decade was that the vast majority of hydrogen actually comes from reforming methane (aka Natural Gas), so it isn't really a move away from fossil fuels and it doesn't reduce carbon dioxide emissions.   In the future, hydrogen could be made from electrolysis of water using renewable electricity, however the overall efficiency of this is lower than using the electricity to power cars directly.  On the other hand even if produced from methane it does reduce air pollution in cities. 

 

I could see a pretty cool application of using hydrogen to power a small fuel cell, which could then charge an EV.  Kind of like a hydrogen gerry can, but I have no idea on how efficient that would actually be.


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#15 ramblinChet

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 12:23 AM

I am happy to concentrate on the pros and cons of different technologies on a fair and level playing field.

 

The simple fact is the electric vehicle industry is being subsidized by our taxpayer money that can be measured in not just hundreds-of-millions, but billions of dollars. The well has already been poisoned and it will never be a fair and level playing field since the advanced technologies being developed will continue to benefit those same companies for an indefinite amount of time. Any fair discussion must include these details.

 

And this is not an opinion - these are facts.


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#16 buckland

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 12:39 AM

0h well. Back to cast iron cooking!
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#17 ckent323

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 01:17 AM

The following reports are worth a read (as well as some of the referenced documents)
 

However, there is always the issue of who is paying for the research and was there a target conclusion in mind or was the research allowed to come to an independent conclusion independent of the motives of the funding. 

Another question is if the research truely looked at the total life cycle impacts considering all potential impacts from mining through disposal and recycling.

I'll leave those questios for readers to sort out.


"Lifecycle Analysis Comparison of a Battery Electric Vehicle and a Conventional Gasoline Vehicle"

 

https://www.ioes.ucl...inal-report.pdf
 

"The environmental footprint of electric versus fossil cars"

 

https://www.sciencel...sus-fossil-cars

 

 

Enjoy,

Craig


Edited by ckent323, 08 April 2021 - 01:24 AM.

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#18 rando

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 02:39 AM

I am happy to concentrate on the pros and cons of different technologies on a fair and level playing field.

 

The simple fact is the electric vehicle industry is being subsidized by our taxpayer money that can be measured in not just hundreds-of-millions, but billions of dollars. The well has already been poisoned and it will never be a fair and level playing field since the advanced technologies being developed will continue to benefit those same companies for an indefinite amount of time. Any fair discussion must include these details.

 

And this is not an opinion - these are facts.

 

Would it not also be true that the fossil fuel industry and 'conventional' vehicle makers (many of whom are now also EV makers) have also been subsidized by taxpayers (of various countries) for 100's of billions of dollars for around a century now?   To suddenly call for no subsidies for EV makers when they are trying to compete against entrenched industries that were built on these subsidies for a century does not seem like a level playing field to me.

 

I do think that EVs would eventually take over the market on their merits alone, but given the inertia they are competing against as well as the trajectory we are currently on, this would take too long. 

 

This is my opinion  :)


Edited by rando, 08 April 2021 - 03:00 AM.

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#19 buckland

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 10:31 AM

Well put Lars. The Petroleum Industry has enjoyed a long history of 'support'. Encouraging new ideas and tech much of the work is overcoming entrenched mindsets. For the most part people hate change...even when it is good for them. 


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#20 Ted

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Posted 08 April 2021 - 02:12 PM

Would it not also be true that the fossil fuel industry and 'conventional' vehicle makers (many of whom are now also EV makers) have also been subsidized by taxpayers (of various countries) for 100's of billions of dollars for around a century now?   To suddenly call for no subsidies for EV makers when they are trying to compete against entrenched industries that were built on these subsidies for a century does not seem like a level playing field to me.

 

 

Agree completely. To call the EV industry out for subsidies while completely ignoring the long history and continued subsidies to the petroleum and standard vehicle industry just doesn't make sense.


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