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#31 rando

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Posted 14 August 2021 - 02:51 PM

Jon, no need to be sorry!  Not insulted at all. I’m new to this stuff and I know it!  
 

Would love to find someone to help me think through. Anyone live in Denver?

 

I am just up the road in Boulder, but I am pretty sure you will be able to do this by your self.  

 

First, select the LiFePO4 battery you want to use.   Here are just a few options (full disclosure I have a DIY battery and have not used any of these):

  1.  Battleborn - heavily promoted, have good support and are a safe bet.  However they are also expensive ($950 for 100Ah), and don't have any built in monitoring of the battery so you will also want to add a battery monitor (Victron BMV-712).
  2.  PowerSonic - well established (50 years) battery company with good support, $750 for 100Ah with built in bluetooth.
  3.  Renogy - these can sometimes be found on sale for $550, and you can add bluetooth monitoring for another $30.  Renogy are a large US based importer and should be a fairly safe bet. 
  4.  reBel - smaller US based importer, selling the same batteries available on Amazon/eBay but with US support for $550 for 100Ah.  Built in bluetooth, and seemingly decent reviews. 
  5. Any number of batteries on Amazon (HQST, Aims, Chins etc) - $450 - $550 for 100Ah, some have built in monitoring, support maybe a bit spotty, some have decent reviews.   Realize that all the manufacturers are using Chinese made cells, and BMS (including Battleborn) so you shouldn't be inherently turned off by direct from China.
  6.  Lots of other options, Trojan, LiFeBlue, Relion, etc

You can then just remove the current lead acid battery, and install the new LiFePO4 battery (2 bolts).  For the most part, all your current equipment will work fine with an LiFePO4 battery, so you can just use it for a few months and see how it performs.  Contrary to popular belief, LiFePO4 batteries are far less picky about charging and the like than lead acid batteries. 

 

Here are a couple of other thoughts:

 

Your stock Iota converter will fully charge your LiFePO4 battery, but it will also float charge the battery, which LiFePO4 doesn't really want, so don't leave it plugged in for more than a few days at a time.  Many of us (with solar) never plug in anyway, so long term this may not matter.  

 

The Blueseas battery isolator will keep the camper and truck connected most of the time due to the higher resting voltage of the LiFePO4 battery - if you park in the sun this is not a big deal, as the solar will charge both the camper and truck batteries.   If you park in doors, you may want to pull the fuse on the negative wire to the battery isolator when not using the camper which will turn the battery isolator off.  Reinstall the fuse when you use the camper.   You won't get a whole lot of charge current to the battery, but that may or may not matter for your usage. In the future you can replace this with a DC-DC charger, an simple ignition controlled solenoid or a lithium specific isolator or just leave it as is.

 

Your ZAMP solar controller will also charge the LiFePO4 battery.  If yours has the Lithium battery mode, switch it to that, if not use the GEL mode, it is close enough.    In the future you may want to upgrade just the controller to a Victron MPPT which will be more efficient and has a lithium mode, but this is not urgent.

 

If you do end up with a battery without built in monitoring, you will want to add some sort of battery monitor when you install the battery.   The standard is the Victron BMV-712 , this is a little more complicated to install, but there are plenty of instructional videos. 


Edited by rando, 14 August 2021 - 02:55 PM.

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#32 Jon R

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Posted 14 August 2021 - 03:09 PM

There are a lot of battery choices out there and if all you want to do is install 100 ah of LiFePO you can probably make almost any of them work, and extra BMS features like bluetooth and charge state monitoring might be primary to your decision. However, if you want to install more battery capacity now or potentially later without having to start over, form factor of the battery becomes a big issue because you have to find room for the battery or batteries in an appropriate location in the camper. Form factor my be more important than extra BMS features In that case.
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#33 Outnabout

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Posted 15 August 2021 - 06:22 PM

Yes it does - most provide state of charge, voltage, current in/out of the battery, internal temperature etc. Additionally, they typically provide the individual cell level voltages so you know everything is OK within the battery. The exact details of what is reported depend on the particular battery, but most seem to be using a similar internal BMS. The SOC is calculated using coulomb counting (Ah in minus Ah out) just like a Victron BMV.

I have both a bluethooth enabled BMS and a Victron BMV - the SOC is typically within a few % of each other. I typically look at the data from the BMS because it gives me more detail. If I were starting again, I would skip the Victron BMV. While the BMV is a great piece of equipment, the battery directly provides what I need to know.


Thanks, so much. Great info. I find the longer I wait to get into this new technology the more information I gather and the technology changes and hopefully becomes cheaper. Cheers
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#34 eyemgh

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 03:08 AM

I am just up the road in Boulder, but I am pretty sure you will be able to do this by your self.  

 

First, select the LiFePO4 battery you want to use.   Here are just a few options (full disclosure I have a DIY battery and have not used any of these):

  1.  Battleborn - heavily promoted, have good support and are a safe bet.  However they are also expensive ($950 for 100Ah), and don't have any built in monitoring of the battery so you will also want to add a battery monitor (Victron BMV-712).
  2.  PowerSonic - well established (50 years) battery company with good support, $750 for 100Ah with built in bluetooth.
  3.  Renogy - these can sometimes be found on sale for $550, and you can add bluetooth monitoring for another $30.  Renogy are a large US based importer and should be a fairly safe bet. 
  4.  reBel - smaller US based importer, selling the same batteries available on Amazon/eBay but with US support for $550 for 100Ah.  Built in bluetooth, and seemingly decent reviews. 
  5. Any number of batteries on Amazon (HQST, Aims, Chins etc) - $450 - $550 for 100Ah, some have built in monitoring, support maybe a bit spotty, some have decent reviews.   Realize that all the manufacturers are using Chinese made cells, and BMS (including Battleborn) so you shouldn't be inherently turned off by direct from China.
  6.  Lots of other options, Trojan, LiFeBlue, Relion, etc

You can then just remove the current lead acid battery, and install the new LiFePO4 battery (2 bolts).  For the most part, all your current equipment will work fine with an LiFePO4 battery, so you can just use it for a few months and see how it performs.  Contrary to popular belief, LiFePO4 batteries are far less picky about charging and the like than lead acid batteries. 

 

Here are a couple of other thoughts:

 

Your stock Iota converter will fully charge your LiFePO4 battery, but it will also float charge the battery, which LiFePO4 doesn't really want, so don't leave it plugged in for more than a few days at a time.  Many of us (with solar) never plug in anyway, so long term this may not matter.  

 

The Blueseas battery isolator will keep the camper and truck connected most of the time due to the higher resting voltage of the LiFePO4 battery - if you park in the sun this is not a big deal, as the solar will charge both the camper and truck batteries.   If you park in doors, you may want to pull the fuse on the negative wire to the battery isolator when not using the camper which will turn the battery isolator off.  Reinstall the fuse when you use the camper.   You won't get a whole lot of charge current to the battery, but that may or may not matter for your usage. In the future you can replace this with a DC-DC charger, an simple ignition controlled solenoid or a lithium specific isolator or just leave it as is.

 

Your ZAMP solar controller will also charge the LiFePO4 battery.  If yours has the Lithium battery mode, switch it to that, if not use the GEL mode, it is close enough.    In the future you may want to upgrade just the controller to a Victron MPPT which will be more efficient and has a lithium mode, but this is not urgent.

 

If you do end up with a battery without built in monitoring, you will want to add some sort of battery monitor when you install the battery.   The standard is the Victron BMV-712 , this is a little more complicated to install, but there are plenty of instructional videos. 

 

My set up is super simple. I have no shore power and no solar. If I wanted to drop a LiFePO4 in and all I had was a Blue Seas isolator and didn't want to babysit it removing the fuse off and on again, what would you replace the isolator with, ideally brand specific? WOuld that change if you were considering solar in the future. Thanks!


Edited by eyemgh, 16 August 2021 - 03:09 AM.

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#35 Vic Harder

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 03:28 AM

My set up is super simple. I have no shore power and no solar. If I wanted to drop a LiFePO4 in and all I had was a Blue Seas isolator and didn't want to babysit it removing the fuse off and on again, what would you replace the isolator with, ideally brand specific? WOuld that change if you were considering solar in the future. Thanks!

There is lots of good info on this forum already in other threads.... (just sayin').  Recently I saw a FB post by KP that presented a pretty good summary of all you need to know (20+) Four Wheel Campers Owners : FWC Lithium Manifesto | Facebook

 

Other opinions are also valid.

 

To answer your question directly, I'd suggest a Victron Orion - Victron Energy (pkys.com) and an upgrade of your wiring from truck to camper to at least 6AWG.  That unit needs a lot of ventilation, so mount it somewhere it can "breathe" or install a fan to cool it.

 

This recommendation would NOT change if you are considering solar in the future.  

 

Also, consider reading the threads in my sig.... 


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#36 rando

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 01:32 PM

My set up is super simple. I have no shore power and no solar. If I wanted to drop a LiFePO4 in and all I had was a Blue Seas isolator and didn't want to babysit it removing the fuse off and on again, what would you replace the isolator with, ideally brand specific? WOuld that change if you were considering solar in the future. Thanks!

 

Vic's suggestion of the Victron DC-DC is spot on, particularly if you are relying on getting a decent amount of charge from the alternator to your LiFePO4.  I assume as you have no solar or shore power, that this is very important. 

 

If you just want something that is equivalent to the current blue seas isolator, but is set up for lithium voltages, then the Victron Cyrix-Li is a drop in replacement for the blue seas.


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#37 eyemgh

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Posted 16 August 2021 - 03:46 PM

There is lots of good info on this forum already in other threads.... (just sayin').  Recently I saw a FB post by KP that presented a pretty good summary of all you need to know (20+) Four Wheel Campers Owners : FWC Lithium Manifesto | Facebook

 

Other opinions are also valid.

 

To answer your question directly, I'd suggest a Victron Orion - Victron Energy (pkys.com) and an upgrade of your wiring from truck to camper to at least 6AWG.  That unit needs a lot of ventilation, so mount it somewhere it can "breathe" or install a fan to cool it.

 

This recommendation would NOT change if you are considering solar in the future.  

 

Also, consider reading the threads in my sig.... 

 

 

Vic's suggestion of the Victron DC-DC is spot on, particularly if you are relying on getting a decent amount of charge from the alternator to your LiFePO4.  I assume as you have no solar or shore power, that this is very important. 

 

If you just want something that is equivalent to the current blue seas isolator, but is set up for lithium voltages, then the Victron Cyrix-Li is a drop in replacement for the blue seas.

 

Thanks both of you! I started digging through old links, but many were broken, hence the hijack. Lots to consider, but dropping in two 12V AGMs might be the quick and dirty for now. 


Edited by eyemgh, 16 August 2021 - 03:46 PM.

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#38 BBZ

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Posted 17 August 2021 - 04:58 PM

Woah.. just read through all this as I am in the same boat as the original poster.. 

 

 

My takeaway, please correct me if I am wrong.. 

 

I can just drop a LIFePO4 in place of my 2 AGMs.. switch to GEL mode as I have a 2013, with 160 watts of solar I should be fine (Colorado)??   But get a battery monitor.. and eventually switch the controller?   (Also need to look at isolator and probably just disconnect as it doesn't do much).. 

 

I dont worry about weight, but would like more storage space.. 


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#39 rando

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Posted 17 August 2021 - 05:20 PM

Woah.. just read through all this as I am in the same boat as the original poster.. 

 

 

My takeaway, please correct me if I am wrong.. 

 

I can just drop a LIFePO4 in place of my 2 AGMs.. switch to GEL mode as I have a 2013, with 160 watts of solar I should be fine (Colorado)??   But get a battery monitor.. and eventually switch the controller?   (Also need to look at isolator and probably just disconnect as it doesn't do much).. 

 

I dont worry about weight, but would like more storage space.. 

 

Yup, that is a good summary.     If you get a LiFePO4 with built in bluetooth, then you don't need the battery monitor.   One 100Ah LiFePO4 is roughly equivalent to  2x 75Ah AGMs. 

Longer term you may want to consider upgrading the solar charge controller to a programmable MPPT, or adding a DC-DC if you want charging from the truck, but neither is a pressing requirement.


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#40 Vic Harder

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Posted 17 August 2021 - 05:24 PM

Woah.. just read through all this as I am in the same boat as the original poster.. 

 

 

My takeaway, please correct me if I am wrong.. 

 

I can just drop a LIFePO4 in place of my 2 AGMs.. switch to GEL mode as I have a 2013, with 160 watts of solar I should be fine (Colorado)??   But get a battery monitor.. and eventually switch the controller?   (Also need to look at isolator and probably just disconnect as it doesn't do much).. 

 

I dont worry about weight, but would like more storage space.. 

Yup, you could get away with this plan.  For hardware upgrades, I do favor the Victron gear (no affiliation!).  Their BMV is great, but they also have a bluetooth shunt that would do the trick for less. 


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