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RV's...how much longer?


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#1 hugho

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Posted 09 September 2022 - 05:29 PM

I am an  amateur energy analyst and would like to throw this topic out for discussion. In North America in the past decade there has been a big RV boom and the ill conceived pandemic shutdown  response plan has also fueled this boom. Big trucks and RVs are seemingly everywhere this past summer especially here in Jackson Wyoming. I am afraid that this boom is long in the tooth and the rise in fossil energy worldwide will in my opinion curtail any more expansion. Despite government assurances to the contrary I think we are heading for a severe recession with inflation, which is a bad combination. Rising fossil energy  prices are a big piece of the picture. We were heading for relative curtailment of  middle distillate supply by early winter even without the Ukraine war. World crude oil production peaked in 2018 and  the lack of exploration for  significant new sources has set the table for the decade ahead.

     Diesel and other middle distillates are in relatively short supply world wide and we should plan on prices staying where they are for the foreseeable future and then climbing over the decade even here in the US. The kind of  light sweet crude suitable for  abundant diesel refining is limited worldwide. Gasoline looks to be a better bet going forward and of course it is generally quite a bit cheaper than diesel. I think we RV'ers need to wake up to these rising costs of energy and expect that one day fuels, especially diesel may be rationed which will derail the motorhome and big RVs. Diesel will be preferentially allocated to Agriculture, mining, airlines, commercial transportation, shipping and of course the military and we  private citizens will be at the end of the line.Small light RV's and even we Alaskancamper types are better positioned going forward IMO.

 


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#2 Espresso

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 03:25 PM

The flip side is, as people transition to EV's, their will be less demand there for gas and diesel. 


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#3 lqhikers

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 04:36 PM

Sorry Espresso, it will be past your lifetime, and mine before their will be less demand for gas and diesel, please if you are going to drink the kool aid try to remember that the world is not just San Francisco and Calif.

Off course this is my opinion your is allowed to differ.

Les, lqhikers.


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#4 Casa Escarlata Robles Too

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Posted 10 September 2022 - 11:16 PM

Les you are so right.I don't see how "everyone" can have an EV,the same for solar.

 

How are people who rent,have to park on the street or their building isn't wired

and maybe can't be wired for EV charging,going to charge their car?

 

IMO what is needed  are more cars like the Chevy volt that powered by electric and 

have a small generator on board to charge the battery.

 

Frank


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#5 ckent323

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 01:53 AM

I have read several papers on the holistic full life cycle cost analysis (including environmental and health costs) of Internal Combustion Engines (ICEs) and Electric Vehicles (EVs).

The conclusions seem to show that the EVs are about break even with ICEs in total life cycle cost.

However, there are some very large assumptions relative to economies of scale and commercial disposal of the end of life batteries.  I call assumptions like these arm waiving.  I have heard many arguments over my lifetime about future technology breakthroughs solving problems caused by environmental destruction and safe disposal of the hazardous wastes.  So far a lot more promise than reality.  Plastics, tires, batteries, nuclear fuel to name a few.

End of life recycling aside the first order problem is that there are not enough existing mines to supply the raw materials if all vehicles were EV.  Indeed it will take a decade or more of development of new mining and manufacturing infrastructure to supply enough batteries to replace all ICE vehicles.

I have also done a fair amount of reading on oil and gas as well as refining . The old website "The Oil Drum" was a great free resource.  Sadly it is gone and the best free replacement I have found is Oilprice.com.  The EIA is also a good resource of information n all forms of energy not just oil and gas.

Diesel and gasoline (along with other fuels) are distillates of oil and the amount a refinery gets out of a barrel of oil depends on the quality of the crude but more importantly on the design of the refinery (what percentages of particular distillates are desired).  In the US Petroleum refineries in the United States produce about 19 to 20 gallons of motor gasoline and 11 to 12 gallons of ultra-low sulfur distillate fuel oil (most of which is sold as diesel fuel and in several states as heating oil) from one 42-gallon barrel of crude oil.

 

There is still a lot of oil in the ground.   Oil is a commodity and the laws of supply and demand (subject to some manipulation by international politics and giant oil brokers storing or releasing millions of barrels of oil) is what determines price of a barrel. The cost of the refined products that we use depend on the cost of extraction, transportation, refining and delivery.

https://www.scienced...048969721079493


Edited by ckent323, 12 September 2022 - 01:07 AM.

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#6 Casa Escarlata Robles Too

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Posted 11 September 2022 - 10:02 PM

Interesting incite Craig,thanks.

There is always more to issues then written about.

There are always two sides to a story.Having as many facts

as possible helps to make good decisions.

Frank 


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#7 Aquadoc

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Posted 12 November 2022 - 05:04 AM

CKent, sad thing about NUC, we've got the tech for building spent rod reactors. It would be nice to know a good reason for not building them.
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#8 AWG_Pics

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Posted 12 November 2022 - 04:06 PM

If you will allow a few points from an old petroleum geophysicist turned environmental cleanup and restoration person:

 

- Peak Oil has been predicted to be not far off, over the last 70 years, by my last count, some 20 plus times, always moving the target further into the future. As CKent said: "There is a lot of oil in the ground."

 

- Small scale nuclear has significant waste generation aspects: https://news.stanfor...-nuclear-waste/ This is significant because we do not yet have a high level nuclear waste repository.

 

- The electric grid is severely strained at certain times due to weather and natural events. Adding much more solar vehicle charging demand requires significant changes to the grid, at significant costs.

 

- The principle of supply and demand suggests gas and diesel prices and availability will continue to vary based on changes in demand followed, with some lag, by changes in supply.

 

- Whether or not we are on the verge of a recession is a matter of speculation. Lots of very well informed experts cannot agree if we are or are not facing a recession. There probably are limits to growth, and now that we have 8 billion people on earth, we likely are not at that limit now or in the near future.

 

I am not worried that the type of vehicle I buy, gas, diesel or solar, will make a jot of difference in the big picture. So I will keep my gasser and try to wear it out before I wear myself out.

 

Tony


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#9 Vic Harder

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Posted 12 November 2022 - 10:03 PM

 So I will keep my gasser and try to wear it out before I wear myself out.

 

Tony

 

Me too!


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#10 JaSAn

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Posted 13 November 2022 - 03:13 AM

 . . .

- The electric grid is severely strained at certain times due to weather and natural events. Adding much more solar vehicle charging demand requires significant changes to the grid, at significant costs.

 . . .

 

IMO it is leadership incompetence to force increased demand for electricity (mandate sale of EVs) before securing increased supply (power plants, distribution).  That is unless there is a different agenda.


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