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Fleece as soft-side insulation?


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#11 MarkBC

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:26 AM

Hmmm . . . procrastinate or get sewing!
It's your call, Mark. :P

Or I may opt for stapling, instead of sewing...


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#12 Casa Escarlata Robles Too

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:34 AM

Great show and tell,Ski.I don't feel we need a "cold pack" so much as a dead air space to keep the condensation off the liner.Manily in the bed area.I find that since we sleep crosswise our heads are to one side and there seems to be condensation from the front corner to the area between the windows.On our Denali/Yukon trip this year when I started noticing the problem, I have thought that a fabric like the fleece would create a dead air space,keeping the moist air from coming into contact with the liner.I am anxious to hear how Marc's cold pack works out.

What luck have owners had with the purchased cold pack?

Frank
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#13 Alley-Kat

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:47 AM

What luck have owners had with the purchased cold pack?

Frank



I put my impressions in the original "Building an Artic - Cold Weather Pack" thread, message #5. I did a feeble attempt at duplicating the writing style of ski3pin's trip reports. He has his report summary in message #17, same thread.
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#14 Gerdo

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:01 AM

A nice thing about fleece is that it'll dry fast.

Have you thought about a windstop fleece?

Or neoprene?

The nice thing about fleece and neoprene is that it can be cut and doesn't unravel.
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#15 MarkBC

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:17 AM

Have you thought about a windstop fleece?
Or neoprene?

Neoprene -- I assume you mean neoprene foam, for its insulating ability -- does sound like a good idea, but two years ago I already tried the closed-cell foam approach, and I've moved on. Now, the thing about neoprene foam -- unlike the polyethylene foam that I tried 2 years ago -- is that it's relatively soft/flexible so it has better "drape" (at least, in thin grades) and maybe would have less tendency to buckle and leak air. But the reason that I didn't use Neoprene foam in my closed-cell-foam experiment is that it's a lot more expensive than the PE foam I used.

Speaking of co$t: I've checked fleece costs online, and it looks like I can get 60-inch wide material for 5 - 7 $/yard, and I think I'll need 4 yards at most, so it'll cost me around $25 for the fleece.
So, I think I can afford this experiment no matter what the outcome. And if it doesn't meet my needs I'll just cut it into cozy shawls for gifts. Posted Image It's a win-win situation!
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#16 busboy66

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 03:22 AM

What luck have owners had with the purchased cold pack?


My Eagle has the arctic pak. I haven't found much of a difference in the cold with mine - mainly because I have no heater :(
It does make a bit of difference with the sun shining on the canvas. Keeps a bit of the heat out.
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#17 MarkBC

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:40 AM

My original idea for insulating the soft-sides -- one from several years ago that I've never tried, but I still think makes good sense from a physics standpoint (if nothing else) -- is to attach panels of closed-cell foam to the outside of the softsides. Posted Image Yes, I'm serious! Posted Image

I think what put this idea in my head 3+ years ago was when I noticed the overhanging lip around the edge of the roof of my Hawk -- a lip under/into which a 1/2" foam sheet would fit perfectly. At the time it seemed like the obvious approach, combined with these physics advantages:
  • Putting the insulation on the outside of the vinyl means that the soft-side walls will not get cold, so there will be little/no condensation inside of the walls (within reason, I mean...not counting having a pot of water boiling inside, etc.). With any kind of inside insulation the softsides will be in contact with the cold outside, so they'll be cold, so there will be an opportunity for water to condense...unless your inside insulation is also non-porous/impermeable (like a sheet of plastic) and is well-sealed around all its edges.
  • Another physics advantage over inside-camper insulation: With outside insulation, the air trapped between the foam and the softside is warm, so it won't have a tendency to "fall" down/out from under the foam since the surrounding air is colder, and the top of the foam is nested into that lip so the warm air can't rise out.
HOWEVER...I started considering the difficulties with this approach:
  • Just how do I attach the sheets of foam?
  • How do I keep strong winds from blowing under the foam sheets and lifting/tearing them off or at least blowing against and cooling the softside?
A couple of other, more-minor downsides to this approach:
  • Because they're on the outside it'll frequently happen that I'll be putting up the insulation in night-time darkness, rather than in the well-lit interior.
  • The foam is closed-cell, so it won't soak up water, but when it snows/rains it'll still carry a lot of surface moisture that I'd have to deal with when stowing it for travel.
  • It's bulky to store -- the same problem/drawback #1 from my first post.

I just thought I'd publish this idea here...don't know if it's already been patented...

J/K Posted Image
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#18 Gerdo

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:25 PM

Where does the price of windstoper fleece come out?
I think there could be a major benefit to it.
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#19 chnlisle

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:34 PM

I could be wrong on this one but I think the whole idea behind the Arctic Pack is to create a dead air space between the inside of the camper and the vinyl liner. I'm not really sure why one would use fleece etc. but I am ready to learn.
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#20 MarkBC

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 07:25 PM

I could be wrong on this one but I think the whole idea behind the Arctic Pack is to create a dead air space between the inside of the camper and the vinyl liner.

Yep, Jay, that's my understanding, too, as I mentioned in Post #1 of this thread (e.g., "commercial Artic-Pack works by trapping a simple, unbaffled layer of air against the soft-side"). And a dead air space is better insulation than nothing. But almost any other type of insulation is better than dead air.

Here's my long-winded explanation -- stop reading when it becomes tedious. Posted Image
That layer of dead air reduces heat-flow out of the camper, compared to the vinyl alone, because air has lower heat conductivity than vinyl and because it's a thicker layer than vinyl. But besides conductivity/conduction there also convection -- air movement, and when air heats or cools it's density changes and it moves around...and when it moves around it transfers heat -- and transferring heat is NOT what insulation should do. In other words, "dead air" is not dead enough.
For example, fiberglass insulation is put in the walls of houses rather than leaving that space empty, because walls filled with air-and-fibers is better than walls filled with air. The space is still mostly empty air, -- desirable because air has low heat-conductivity -- but the network of fine fibers puts drag on the air and reduces its convection -- movement.
This principle of reducing conduction and convection (and radiation) is behind all insulation. A classic vacuum "Thermos" bottle uses all three: A vacuum is nothing, so it doesn't conduct, and because there's nothing that can move it doesn't permit convection, and the walls of the container are reflective so heat transfer by radiation is reduced.

Why fleece? Because the fine fibers in the fleece fabric create a layer of isolated, non-convecting, air.
The bubbles in Reflectix are another example of isolated, non-convecting air.

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Where does the price of windstoper fleece come out?
I think there could be a major benefit to it.

Gerdo, I haven't checked it yet. But I'm not sure I need it... Since there's no wind inside the camper, why would I need insulation with a wind barrier inside the camper?
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