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Bilstein shocks warning.


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#21 leadsled9

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 09:38 PM

After 40 years of thousand of miles with no problems with twin tubes and then going through two sets of 5100's in just a few hundred miles, I'd say I've done the acid test. I'm back to twin tubes, expecting many thousands of reliable service as I have had over the last decades.


What twin tube shocks do you recommend? Brand?? Model??
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#22 generubin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

Pro Comps 9000 or Ranchos 5000, either work well and both have provided good service for me.
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#23 leadsled9

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:38 AM

Pro Comps 9000 or Ranchos 5000, either work well and both have provided good service for me.


Thanks.
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#24 ntsqd

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

I think that you've been unfair to the Bilsteins. Had you put the replacements on and in short order failed them too then I'd understand going back to twin-tubes. Condemning them because of the failure of one set that could have easily been a QA/QC problem with the pair is not a valid test result. I replaced Rancho 5000's with Bilsteins and both ride quality and damper service life have improved. Your experience is far outside the norm for Bilstein dampers. There is an unaccounted for factor present that hasn't been determined and rendered inert. I suspect that there was a QC/QA issue with that pair (which have a high likelihood of having been made at nearly the same time) since it would appear that your truck and driving style are well within the norm, but that will be left unknown now.
I'm OK with your not wanting to experiment further and going back to what you're familiar/comfortable with, but I'm not OK with condemning a whole design based on a single, flawed "test" when there are too many positive results from their application to similar trucks.
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Thom

Where does that road go?

#25 MarkBC

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:14 PM

...Condemning them because of the failure of one set that could have easily been a QA/QC problem with the pair is not a valid test result. ....There is an unaccounted for factor present that hasn't been determined and rendered inert. ...not OK with condemning a whole design based on a single, flawed "test" when there are too many positive results from their application to similar trucks.

This is an excellent point.
I know NOTHING about shocks...barely know how they work...I've got the stock shocks on my truck...
BUT I spent over 30 years doing research and development and nothing else, and what it takes to come to correct conclusions is something I know A LOT about. An "n" of one -- using just one example to "prove" a point -- is the wrong way to come to a correct conclusion. This is why people shouldn't believe stuff just because they read it on an internet forum -- most forum posters don't do research, they just post what they happen to believe. If it happens to be correct then it's just by random chance.

And it doesn't matter how many remote deserts someone has driven across -- it doesn't make a single sample more valid. Of course, people make all kinds of personal decisions based on insufficient data -- I do myself, but they shouldn't take a personal decision and spread it as fact.
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#26 chnlisle

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:15 PM

I too run ProComp 9000's and although the ride is a compromise (what on earth isn't) I've been very satisfied with them for many challenging miles. FYI the folks at Geno's Garage, who sell thousands of Bilseins, say that they get a lot of them back and have just decided to give refunds without the user returning the shocks. Given that, I'm guessing they have an agrrement with Bilstein. This might indicate that Bilstein is aware of either a shock problem or a problem proposing them for off road use. Otherwise they would require the shock to be returned. Further, with that many shocks going bad, if it is a QC/QA issue then Bilstein has a problem far more serious than a few bad shocks.
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#27 generubin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

I think that you've been unfair to the Bilsteins. Had you put the replacements on and in short order failed them too then I'd understand going back to twin-tubes. Condemning them because of the failure of one set that could have easily been a QA/QC problem with the pair is not a valid test result. I replaced Rancho 5000's with Bilsteins and both ride quality and damper service life have improved. Your experience is far outside the norm for Bilstein dampers. There is an unaccounted for factor present that hasn't been determined and rendered inert. I suspect that there was a QC/QA issue with that pair (which have a high likelihood of having been made at nearly the same time) since it would appear that your truck and driving style are well within the norm, but that will be left unknown now.
I'm OK with your not wanting to experiment further and going back to what you're familiar/comfortable with, but I'm not OK with condemning a whole design based on a single, flawed "test" when there are too many positive results from their application to similar trucks.


Hi Thom,

I think you aren't reading my posts, even my last post: "After 40 years of thousand of miles with no problems with twin tubes and then going through two sets of 5100's in just a few hundred miles, I'd say I've done the acid test".


I had considered trying Bilsteins for a third time because I do prefer the on-road feel of the 5100's. It was my conversation with Bilstein that made me give up on the mono-tubes. I asked the tech about the 5160 but the tech told me they would only be slightly more likely not to overheat, "if you have blown out the 5100 that fast, you'll probably blow out the 5160's". He started talking much more expensive Bilsteins, special valving and even changing to a different oil than what they usually use. I just couldn't see going through all the expense and experimentation when what I had before worked great for 40 years. The people at Bilstein were very friendly, very accommodating and very honest. Where I take issue is that their website shows 5100's as on/off road shocks. Somewhere (I could not find it on their site) the Bilstein warranty lady read to me over the phone "for on road and light off road only". Finally, under the warranty details on Bilstein's own site the 5100's warranty does "not cover off-road use".

None of my comments have ever been a rant about Bilstein, I've only had nice things to say. I only brought this issue up to share with other members of this site hoping to save them the same aggravation. IMO, For the proper application of on-road and light off-road the Bilsteins are great. If you are doing long washboard like Saline Valley Road or certain roads in Baja, twin tubes are likely your better choice.
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#28 generubin

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

This is an excellent point.
I know NOTHING about shocks...barely know how they work...I've got the stock shocks on my truck...
BUT I spent over 30 years doing research and development and nothing else, and what it takes to come to correct conclusions is something I know A LOT about. An "n" of one -- using just one example to "prove" a point -- is the wrong way to come to a correct conclusion. This is why people shouldn't believe stuff just because they read it on an internet forum -- most forum posters don't do research, they just post what they happen to believe. If it happens to be correct then it's just by random chance.

And it doesn't matter how many remote deserts someone has driven across -- it doesn't make a single sample more valid. Of course, people make all kinds of personal decisions based on insufficient data -- I do myself, but they shouldn't take a personal decision and spread it as fact.


Hi Mark,
As stated in my previous posts, I went through two sets. I was about to give a third set a try. Then I received info from Bilstein on the phone from warranty and techs that these are not appropriate for washboard. I'm simply telling of my experience. For 90% of the owners, the mono-tubes will likely never be a problem, it depends on the roads one travels.
Gene

WARRANTY RESTRICTIONS
The limited warranties set forth above do not cover normal wear and tear and are non-transferable. The following are warranty exclusions:
Original equipment shock absorbers (vehicle manufacturer warranty)
Improper installation
Racing, driving competition or off-road use
Modified use or other than Bilstein-recommended vehicles
Commercial vehicles
Bent or broken Rods showing abuse or abnormal wear
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#29 leadsled9

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:38 PM

I like to learn from other peoples experience. When it's replacement time....I'll go with Ranchos. I've used them in the past and never had a problem with them.

In all fairness....I ran Bilsteins on my Tundra for many years and never had a problem...but with the economy the way it is....and companies taking short cuts.....who knows how the current Bilstein shocks are being built (and by whom).
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2010 Ford F250 4X4; 6.4 Powerstroke Diesel; Warn 16.5 winch; Airlift Springs; Transfer Flow 47 gal. fuel tank, BDS 4" lift kit, BDS dual steering stabilizer with upgraded Fox 2.0 shocks, Toyo 35X12.50X18 Open Country M/T tires, Pro Comp wheels;  2008 FWC Hawk Camper;  2000 Toyota Tundra.


#30 ntsqd

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:51 PM

Gene, I read of two dampers, not two sets of dampers. Both sets failed in the same place and/or within the same short distance?

As has been stated coil springs present more of a challenge to damp than do leaf springs. And admittedly the D60 under a CTD weighs more than does the Toyota 8" live axle under the front of my Mini, however I have repeatedly HAMMERED on that truck off road and never had problem with the 5100's that have been on it for nearly a decade. I just don't see how there could be such a dramatic difference in lifespan.

The S-10 desert race truck that I chase started out with Bilstein 7100's on it. The only difference between a 5100 and a 7100 is that the 7100 is easily rebuilt or re-valved, and if it has a remote reservoir that the hose is larger on the 7100's (-6 instead of -4). Same 2.0" damper body, same 14mm damper shaft used for both series of dampers. The only time that the S-10 ever had a problem with the 7100's was when we got the valving too stiff and a heavy stuff into a gulch hydraulically locked the dampers which bent the shafts. That truck has faded the 7100's and when they cooled back down enough they were still serviceable (though they got a total rebuild after the race). Over time I've seen the rod guides start to leak from wear, but yours is the first abrupt failure that I've ever heard of.

So I still see something missing in the total equation. What I'm reading about Bilsteins does not jive with what I have experienced with them.

I've had Ranchos on two different trucks. The first truck rode badly and there was only one cure, going to Bilsteins. That's the Mini that I mention above. The other truck was a '91 3/4t 4WD Suburban with a 5.7L. With the Ranchos it's pavement ride quality was tolerable bordering on nice, but after a couple of miles of washboard it lacked the damping required for finesse driving. You either had to slow way down or accept that it was more like a sailboat than anything else and that you were "herding it" in more or less the direction that you wanted to go.
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Thom

Where does that road go?




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