3/4 ton upgrade to 1/2 ton......

[ThinAir]

In my quest for the proper tool for the job I've been down some roads many others have gone down or will plan to go down, now I'm considering yet another move.

Bought a Nissan Frontier and put a Finch on it. Severely overloaded, truck swayed back and forth, front end was unweighted, dangerous. Sold both, bought a Hawk and an 07 Ram 2500 diesel. Not happy, always bottoming out front axle into the bump stops, ride was harsh, truck still swayed to much for my liking, front end with 85k on it was shot. Spent $5,000 on front end, including a minimal 2" Thuren front lift. Had custom spring made for rear end. Truck is now a rockstar off road, on road the front end is much softer feeling but the overall feeling is still to harsh on road in the ass end, always was. The Dodge has a very short wheelbase at I think around 137" for my Crew Cab 6'3" box.

My biggest complaint, as is with many Gen 3 Ram diesel owners is the NOISE. I have stock exhaust, but going down the road the wind noise around the cab is deafening, one can't really carry on a cell phone conversation. Nor do I feel relaxed driving the vehicle, with all the motor noise, wind noise, doors that vibrate and let air in past the seals in medium cross winds, etc. I just drove back from Santa Fe where I was climbing at Diablo Canyon, put in two back to back 10 hour days and I can honesty say the truck wore me out. Between the rough ride, wind and motor noise, I vowed to trade it in and be done with the truck for good. I've got it up for sale for $26,900 on Craigslist of Milwaukee right now.

I can't find sufficient information on this site that would lend info on the truck I'm considering next. 2013 Ford F-150 5.0 V8 Crew with 6'6" bed and an 157" wheelbase in the "Heavy Duty" package XLT. This package delivers 2,310lbs of payload, which I'd hope would mean that the HD package of a beefier rear 9.25" end, beefier springs all around (three leaf's and a overload vs. two on the non HD) would be a nice addition to my Hawk. I bought a Hawk shell and built my own cabinets, have an ARB fridge, 40 gal of water, a pump, and a Propex furnace (about 10 lbs). Incidentally the small Propex is the perfect furnace for these campers, doesn't drive you out of the camper, cycles quieter, and sips propane.

I know most on this site including me drink 3/4 ton cool-aid, but after a test drive of a non 3/4 ton F-150, I'm impressed.

Is there anyone out there that can shed some light on this thought of mine to "downgrade" from 3/4 to a "heavy half"?

 

[pods8]

The newer 1/2T's, esp. the ford are getting quite beefed up. Basically they're often packaging them at the levels of the older 3/4T. So if you're in the brand spank'n new market then you'll definitely get more out of a 1/2T by a long shot.

The new 5.0 ford is supposed to be a really nice engine and the new fords are also really nice. (They charge for it too. )

 

[Phird05]

Hey Thinair,

You won't find many people on this site that will think you are making a good choice, but I have to tell you I have an F-150 and have been totally satisfied. The only alterations I havemade are E rated tires and I installed air bags myself....no issues no complaints. Mine is an 08 and it has handled my camper with no issues. I am off the main roads frequently getting to some very rough access points to rivers and trail heads. You will certainly hear that 1/2 tons shouldn't be hauling campers around but rest assured you will be satisfied with the performance of the modern day 150.

Have fun and,

Good Camping!

Paul

 

[ThinAir]

The newer 1/2T's, esp. the ford are getting quite beefed up. Basically they're often packaging them at the levels of the older 3/4T. So if you're in the brand spank'n new market then you'll definitely get more out of a 1/2T by a long shot.

The new 5.0 ford is supposed to be a really nice engine and the new fords are also really nice. (They charge for it too. )


Pods8, I'm not necessarily in the "spanking new" mode at all, it just appears that the 2012+ Ford F-150 is the only truck that offers an HD option that is for real, offering 2300 lbs of payload. I'm having concerns about pulling the trigger though. Basically they are having a $5,500 rebate, and a nice XLT crew, 6.5' box truck at dealer list is $39,175, so that puts the truck in my lap at around $33,500. What is so odd about this is that you have to go 10 or 11 pages into Auto Trader to find a used non HD truck being sold for the same price. So those incentives are HUGE right now. I feel bad for the dealers who are trying to sell anywhere above this number, literally slews of trucks. And why so many F-150's so new, with less than 15k on them being sold? It just gives me the heeby jeeby's. One thing that really turns me off with the crew and 6.5' box is the split rear drive shafts, looks like there's been some issues with vibrations on the 157" wheelbase trucks.

I want quiet, more comfortable ride. I'd gladly give up my Ram 2500's off road prowess for something to fit that bill. I'm going to look at a 2011 Super Duty super cab 6.7 diesel today. If that doesn't jingle my bells, I'll look at the low slung Chevy's. I tried so hard to be a Dodge guy, just not doing it for me.

I've looked at Fuely's website to get real reports of fuel usage, and it appears that the new 6.7 and my 5.9 do about the same, perhaps less mpg drop off with weight with the 6.7. Just looking for something more refined I guess.

 

[ThinAir]

Hey Thinair,

You won't find many people on this site that will think you are making a good choice, but I have to tell you I have an F-150 and have been totally satisfied. The only alterations I havemade are E rated tires and I installed air bags myself....no issues no complaints. Mine is an 08 and it has handled my camper with no issues. I am off the main roads frequently getting to some very rough access points to rivers and trail heads. You will certainly hear that 1/2 tons shouldn't be hauling campers around but rest assured you will be satisfied with the performance of the modern day 150.

Have fun and,

Good Camping!

Paul


Paul, what cab and box length do you have? One of the other things I didn't mention is how my Dodge seems to carry it's bed weight less evenly distributed between the axles than I'd like, I see in towing tests this is also being reported as a difference between the new Ford and Dodge 3/4 tons. I like the idea of an engineering design, be it wheelbase or what have you that more evenly distributes the weight. All this talk on this site about 3/4 ton's being more safe and I've never seen anyone talk about this issue with Dodge weighted causing more steering corrections. Steering corrections in corners makes for a less pleasurable driving experience from my own experience with my Dodge 2500. And before anything can be said about my truck's front end...stop. Thuren track bar, new Dynatrac ball joints, new T-style drag link, Thuren sway bar end links, new front springs, new spicer front U-joints, new freeking everything, and E-rated tires. The truck is tight as a frogs ass to the tune of $5000. Without Hawk on it's like a slot car, with it on it weights the ass really hard (even though I had a custom spring put in my pack adding another 800lbs of capacity) and makes for corrections in steering. Not bad, just not cool. Lets face it, 90% of the driving is on the road getting to where we want to go off road. Yes, my truck is a total and utter FWC hauling off road rockstar, but I'd get down those same roads and trails with a more comfortable rig as well. Maybe not as fast or as much fun, but I'd be there. And I don't own a sow of a Hawk either, I bought a shell and built it light and functional myself.

 

[pods8]

I wasn't trying to say anything wrong with a new truck. I was just pointing out like you that yes the 2012+, esp. ford, 1/2T are notably more capable than the older 1/2Ts that are usually the subject of reference on these debates. The ratings on 3/4Ts has gone up as well. So the newest 1/2Ts are getting to the class of the older 3/4T's. So if you are of the potential ability to get into the newest fleet of 1/2Ts then I wouldn't necessarily see it as a "downgrade". However the majority of folks aren't quite looking in the 2012+ class, esp. when these discussions were occurring prior to the 2012+ release of vehicles so that is where the argument gets some more merit.

BTW, dodge is supposedly back on track to put a diesel in their 1500. I wouldn't want the first one off the line but maybe something to review in a few years.

 

[Riverrunner]

I'm going to look at a 2011 Super Duty super cab 6.7 diesel today.

I've got a buddy that has an 11 6.7L diesel. An 11 is very quiet...unbelievebly quiet compared to my 7.3. Ride is nice too and his is a F450. Power is insane. MPG's are so-so for him. As he's put miles on it, MPG's have gone down however. Good luck in the search.

 

[Phird05]

ThinAir,

I have the four door cab with the 6'6" bed. I feel that the load with camper is very evenly distributed and have no issues with insufficient weight on the front with regard to steering (or lack thereof). Like I said, the ride on the road is very comfortable and getting off road has been no problem. I did have the stock tires on only for the first few trips and I can't describe the improvement when I switched to E rated tires. I saw a huge improvement in cornering with no dipping into corners etc. After that I installed the Firestone airbags only for adjusting and leveling the truck when loaded. If I can ever afford to buy another truck I will most likely get another 1/2 ton. I should mention I also have the 5.4 engine which seems to handle the load quite easily.

 

[ThinAir]

ThinAir,

I have the four door cab with the 6'6" bed. I feel that the load with camper is very evenly distributed and have no issues with insufficient weight on the front with regard to steering (or lack thereof). Like I said, the ride on the road is very comfortable and getting off road has been no problem. I did have the stock tires on only for the first few trips and I can't describe the improvement when I switched to E rated tires. I saw a huge improvement in cornering with no dipping into corners etc. After that I installed the Firestone airbags only for adjusting and leveling the truck when loaded. If I can ever afford to buy another truck I will most likely get another 1/2 ton. I should mention I also have the 5.4 engine which seems to handle the load quite easily.


Good to hear especially knowing the new F-150 offers the HD package. I'd go with the 5.0 V8 if I went F-150. I'm still torn. The best deal I can get right now for an XLT Crew with 6.5' bed and HD package is $33,500 with auto show discounts. For a grand more you can pick up a new 2012 (still around) Super Cab 4x4 Super Duty with the 6.2 in it. I know the fuel economy would be different from the 5.0 in the F-150 but I just wonder how much.... I did drive the 2011 6.7 diesel today and the best they'd go for the used truck with 26,000 on it was $36.500 for an equally equipped XLT SCAB 6.5ft. bed. Both Super Duty's rode like a dream and were very quiet, like whisper quiet compared to my Dodge. So torn right now.... what to do.

 

[bsharp007]

New Hawk and F150 with the HD package and the Ecoboost engine. I have been impressed thus far, feels stable and plenty of power. You might want to consider this engine as well but I think the 5.0 is also a nice choice.




In my quest for the proper tool for the job I've been down some roads many others have gone down or will plan to go down, now I'm considering yet another move.

Bought a Nissan Frontier and put a Finch on it. Severely overloaded, truck swayed back and forth, front end was unweighted, dangerous. Sold both, bought a Hawk and an 07 Ram 2500 diesel. Not happy, always bottoming out front axle into the bump stops, ride was harsh, truck still swayed to much for my liking, front end with 85k on it was shot. Spent $5,000 on front end, including a minimal 2" Thuren front lift. Had custom spring made for rear end. Truck is now a rockstar off road, on road the front end is much softer feeling but the overall feeling is still to harsh on road in the ass end, always was. The Dodge has a very short wheelbase at I think around 137" for my Crew Cab 6'3" box.

My biggest complaint, as is with many Gen 3 Ram diesel owners is the NOISE. I have stock exhaust, but going down the road the wind noise around the cab is deafening, one can't really carry on a cell phone conversation. Nor do I feel relaxed driving the vehicle, with all the motor noise, wind noise, doors that vibrate and let air in past the seals in medium cross winds, etc. I just drove back from Santa Fe where I was climbing at Diablo Canyon, put in two back to back 10 hour days and I can honesty say the truck wore me out. Between the rough ride, wind and motor noise, I vowed to trade it in and be done with the truck for good. I've got it up for sale for $26,900 on Craigslist of Milwaukee right now.

I can't find sufficient information on this site that would lend info on the truck I'm considering next. 2013 Ford F-150 5.0 V8 Crew with 6'6" bed and an 157" wheelbase in the "Heavy Duty" package XLT. This package delivers 2,310lbs of payload, which I'd hope would mean that the HD package of a beefier rear 9.25" end, beefier springs all around (three leaf's and a overload vs. two on the non HD) would be a nice addition to my Hawk. I bought a Hawk shell and built my own cabinets, have an ARB fridge, 40 gal of water, a pump, and a Propex furnace (about 10 lbs). Incidentally the small Propex is the perfect furnace for these campers, doesn't drive you out of the camper, cycles quieter, and sips propane.

I know most on this site including me drink 3/4 ton cool-aid, but after a test drive of a non 3/4 ton F-150, I'm impressed.

Is there anyone out there that can shed some light on this thought of mine to "downgrade" from 3/4 to a "heavy half"?

 

[ThinAir]

Hey, just wanted to say thanks for everyone's input, great to hear from those with the model I'd consider. I've test drove all three contenders, the new F-150 Ecoboost, the 5.0 and the F250 with 6.7 diesel as well as the 6.2 gas, and they are all nice upgrades to my current Dodge Ram 2500. Each has their own identities and expenses, drawbacks and benefits. In the end I think they would all do the job I'm looking to have them do, so now it's time to just mull it all over and make that choice. Thanks again.

 

[generubin]

Thin Air,

If I was looking to buy a truck in the $33K range, I'd hold off just a bit longer to see what 1/2T diesels are coming. If you start calculating the huge amounts you pay the oil companies it is sickening. Diesel will pay for itself at current prices and gas is going nowhere but up. I've read recently (I forget where, NY Times or Huffington Post) we may be looking at $6 per gallon very soon. The Dodge 1500 may be nice, there's new evidence a Ford Ranger may reappear with diesel, strong evidence of a Jeep diesel pickup in a bit over a year, and likely a Chevy 1500 diesel. Oh yeah, and then there's the Nissan coming with a 4 cyl Cummins!

I have a 2006 Dodge 2500/Cummins and never had a single front-end issue. As a pro mechanic, I can say that most mods over stock just screw things up. By looking at your list of mods to your 2500, I'd say it is the mods, not the truck giving you the problem.

1/2 tons never come with full floating axles, nor super deep crawl ratios. Nor can you get a manual Trans in a 1/2T (I know too much about automatic instant failures, won't own one, nope). I like the idea of a smaller truck in diesel, I'd like to get a 30 mpg diesel instead of my current 19 mpg. But if I was going with a 1/2 ton USA or a Mini truck (Toyota/Nissan) I'd personally go back to a lightweight shell and skip an ATC or FWC. I'm looking forward to the Jeep Wrangler Pickup diesel. It should have a manual trans, low gears and get over 25 mpg!

 

[ThinAir]

Thin Air,

If I was looking to buy a truck in the $33K range, I'd hold off just a bit longer to see what 1/2T diesels are coming. If you start calculating the huge amounts you pay the oil companies it is sickening. Diesel will pay for itself at current prices and gas is going nowhere but up. I've read recently (I forget where, NY Times or Huffington Post) we may be looking at $6 per gallon very soon. The Dodge 1500 may be nice, there's new evidence a Ford Ranger may reappear with diesel, strong evidence of a Jeep diesel pickup in a bit over a year, and likely a Chevy 1500 diesel. Oh yeah, and then there's the Nissan coming with a 4 cyl Cummins!

I have a 2006 Dodge 2500/Cummins and never had a single front-end issue. As a pro mechanic, I can say that most mods over stock just screw things up. By looking at your list of mods to your 2500, I'd say it is the mods, not the truck giving you the problem.

1/2 tons never come with full floating axles, nor super deep crawl ratios. Nor can you get a manual Trans in a 1/2T (I know too much about automatic instant failures, won't own one, nope). I like the idea of a smaller truck in diesel, I'd like to get a 30 mpg diesel instead of my current 19 mpg. But if I was going with a 1/2 ton USA or a Mini truck (Toyota/Nissan) I'd personally go back to a lightweight shell and skip an ATC or FWC. I'm looking forward to the Jeep Wrangler Pickup diesel. It should have a manual trans, low gears and get over 25 mpg!


Gene, thanks for the reply. I thought about waiting until the new Dodge 1500 diesel appears, but with the sorrowful 1/2 ton payload they offer with the four corner coil suspension I'd bet the diesel will not be much better. Funny thing is the new F-150 with the HD package offers 2310lbs of payload while the 3/4 ton in my desired wheelbase is just 2,690lbs. Hardly worth it from a strictly payload capacity, but one can purchase a new F-150 and F-250 gasser for the same price at the moment. Problem is that the 6.4l gasser in the 3/4 ton yield a reported 10 to 11 mpg in real world use with 1,000lbs in the bed. The F-150 looks like it will deliver 14 to 15 depending on if you get the twin turbo eccoboost or the 5.0l v8. There are aspects of my Dodge I really like, but the big killer is the cabin noise and wind noise through the front doors. The front end on my truck is fabulous as mentioned, rides MUCH more softly with the Thuren 2" springs than with the stockers. The ball joints were shot with 85,000 miles on the truck, so I went with the Dynatracs to do the job once and only once. What people don't understand is that when you keep popping ball joints in and out you stretch the axle housing, many guys have to knurl the ball joint housing to get a tight fit even at the second change over. So my upgrades of ball joint, stock T-link dragbar, and Thuren track bar did nothing to hinder, rather help immensely with the handling and ride comfort up front. It's the short wheelbase and stiff ass end, rickety cab and it's noise that are driving me away from a Gen 3 Dodge and into something more humane. After a few years of the new diesels being proven, perhaps 5 years from now, I'll trade this next truck in and move that direction if it makes sense. Right now I'm teetering between a F-150HD crew, 6.5' box and a new 2012 3/4 ton Ford extended cab 6.7 powerstroke. Only a $6,500 difference in price for a similar equipped XLT package. I'll loose the 5k I put in my truck, but for $15,000 I'll have a new quiet truck with zero miles vs. 100,000.

 

[pods8]

The F-150 looks like it will deliver 14 to 15 depending on if you get the twin turbo eccoboost or the 5.0l v8.


Are you factoring in a camper on those numbers already? W/O a camper and running highway steady they do better than that. I want to say I've heard the 5.0 is up in the high teens but a specific number doesn't come to mind. A buddy has a ecoboost (supercab, 4x4 short box, 2011?) and doing a couple hundred mile highway run (60-80mph speeds) he got 21mpg, running around mix highway stop/go stuff he'll get 19mpg if he says outta the throttle. The tricky part about that ecoboost with our campers is what speed adds enough drag to really start making the turbos kick in as that is when the mpg's are going to drop off with that motor in a highway situation. The thing can tow a huge load but will drop off to like 8-9mpg while doing it (as any other gasser will also, it just get good unloaded mpg in the meantime and has a great torque profile).

As cool as the ecoboost is I'd probably be looking harder at the 5.0 for applications that involve more offroad minded stuff. Lots of washboards, deep puddles, etc. just seem like they'd maybe take out the twin turbo engine before a typical engine.

 

[Marshfly]

I've got an 09 F150 Supercrew with the short bed. I actually run an 8' Four wheel camper Cougar on it. With the Helwig sway bar and Firestone bags at 25# it rides very close to stock. Another thing that always comes up is the brakes on half tons. That's just ridiculous. These things weigh 2000# max. The brakes don't even notice a 2k# trailer so why would a load in the bed be any different?

 

[pods8]

The brakes don't even notice a 2k# trailer so why would a load in the bed be any different?



There is a difference between those two scenarios.


That said 1/2T brakes on newer trucks are much larger these days, all around they're being built like older 3/4Ts.

 

[ThinAir]

I guess what I'd like to know is if there is anyone out there with the newer 2011+ 5.0 or eccoboost with a FWC or ATC like a Hawk that can give me "real world" data and feedback about the new HD 1/2 ton's.

As mentioned, I can purchase a brand new 3/4 ton 2012 extended cab 6.5' box Ford with the 6.7 diesel for $40k even, and a F-150 CC HD eccobost is just $4,500 less, and the 5.0 gasser for $5,500 less.

So as it turns out the payload on the 3/4t is 2,690lbs and the 1/2hd is 2,310, or not much difference for me with a light Hawk. Myself and the wife, some climbing gear, etc. I'd guess that we're toting 1,700 lbs not counting fuel for the vehicle.

So if the 150 HD will "handle" the weight, I then become concerned with fuel economy. After reading around one would come to think that a non loaded eccoboost would deliver upper teens for mpg's. With the camper on I just wonder how much the gasser's fuel (either 5.0 or eccoboost) is going to fall off. We travel mainly in the west, hilly, mountainous, and off road terrain. If the mileage falls off to say 12 mpg or 10 mpg then that may be a deal killer for me.

With the 6.7 diesel, the same upper teens are being reported unloaded, but if it's like my current Cummins 5.9 it will stop dropping at about 15 or 16 mpg's if I keep the motor at 68 mph on the freeway.

Now, if the eccoboost or 5.0 would deliver similar loaded mpg's, now that would be a no brainer also. More comfortable ride, no diesel, better daily driver with the camper off, and less $$$ to spend on trips. I figure a 4 mpg difference would then justify diesel.

Either way I go, both trucks look like they'd need airbags from what I've read on this forum, and I don't doubt that a bit as my 2500 Ram 07' needed help in the ass end with another spring, I now wish I'd gone the airbag route for when the camper is off.

I was surprised to see that the new F-250 has just two springs and an overload. The new Duramax has 5 springs and an overload. No wonder why the Dmax has a softer ride and a higher payload than the Ford. The Dmax looks like a Deaver custom spring pack!! No wonder why the Dmax is $3,500 more than the similarly equipped F-250 6.7.

HIGHLY INTERESTED IN FEEDBACK FROM 2011+ F-150 HD OWNERS!!!!

 

[pods8]

Check out this report http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/5396/page__view__findpost__p__60247 and maybe shoot 2wiresDave and email (it looks like he might have sold off his FWC but you can ask his impressions while he had it).

 

[ThinAir]

Check out this report http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/5396/page__view__findpost__p__60247 and maybe shoot 2wiresDave and email (it looks like he might have sold off his FWC but you can ask his impressions while he had it).


I sent 2wires a private message to get the skinny on several questions I have so we'll see. If I get feedback, I'll post it up here. He states early in his report that with the camper on he was getting ave. 18mpg. I wonder if he reset his computer before he got this number, or if it was hand calculated. Perhaps it could be that he was looking at the lie-o-meter and was averaging before the camper was put on up at 20+ and it averaged down to 18 during the relatively short drive home. He later states that with the camper off he'd been seeing 18 to 19 mpg. At first glance it would lead one to believe that he only dropped 1 mpg with the camper on. Cripes, my diesel is affected more than that, so I wonder about those initial numbers. My gut tells me that putting that big wind block of a Hawk on any gasser, you're going to see some fairly significant drops in fuel economy as the little motor has to spool up to make more torque and hp to keep the train moving. If I had to make wild roll of the dice on a mpg drop my guess would be 5 mpg at a minimum, putting the eccoboost more in the 14 mpg on the flats of the east river area's of the country and down to 10 in the western mountains where altitude, dry hot weather, and long pulls really put an engine to it's thirst. More reports on the F-150 HD ecco and 5.0V8 are much needed on this site as the F-150HD is the only 1/2 ton with the payload to responsibly handle a fully configured FWC, gear, water, food, people, dogs, and beer. If we start seeing more real world assessments about mpg's, off road prowess, etc., it would go a long way toward others being able to trust in this 1/2 ton to deliver on performance along with it's good styling, soft ride, fabulous interior, and low price compared to a diesel or gas 3/4 ton. I sure wish the data was out there because I'm in a bit of a crunch if I'm going to throw down money on that 2012 F-250 6.7, there are only so many new 12's left in Ford's inventory, and I don't want to miss out on the incentives. If the data was out there from several sources that confirmed

 

[pods8]

No idea on what pans out with a Hawk on but a couple points on the ecoboost. It does have a rather flat torque curve. 5mpg is quite a hit in general, though maybe with these ultra efficient numbers these engines are more sensitive, I know my hemi doesn't drop off 5mpg but it also doesn't get close to 20 unloaded. The turbo's will keep the engine putting out power at altitude which is helpful.

But like I said above I'd probably be looking at the naturally aspirated 5.0 maybe a tad more for off-road travel. Have you peeked under the ecoboost hood? There is alot of plastic ducting criss crossing in there.