30 Amp Extension Cord Required For A 2016 Hawk "Shore" Power ?

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Wallowa

Double Ought
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Just got off phone with FWC "tech" [[530] 419-2417] when asking about recommended amperage for external power extension cord for my Hawk, he said "30 Amps". I was astounded, he said that since trailer parks have 30 Amp outlets and the plug built into my Hawk was rated at 30 Amps; therefore, I needed a 30 Amp extension cord between them.

What am I missing here? I know we have 15Amp breakers. A 30 Amp 50 foot extension cord would require a trailer to carry it.

I tried to research this but never found a definitive amperage figure recommendation in the FWC literature or at the website. Sure bigger is better but what is best real world choice in amperage for that cord?

Thanks for any information and recommendations.

Phil
 
When we bought our 2020 Grandby, FWC provided a 15A extension cord and an adapter pigtail to plug into the side of the camper. My understanding is the 30A is only necessary if you have the AC option. If you are going to use it in a campground that only has 30A service, then you may also need an adapter on that end.

-Scott
 
heinphoto said:
When we bought our 2020 Grandby, FWC provided a 15A extension cord and an adapter pigtail to plug into the side of the camper. My understanding is the 30A is only necessary if you have the AC option. If you are going to use it in a campground that only has 30A service, then you may also need an adapter on that end.

-Scott
Click to expand...
15A is what I remembered, no idea why tech at FWC said 30A....no AC for us..I have an adapter for CG with only 30A service...and the pig tail that connects to the Hawk 30A plug in....thanks!
 
Phil, to my way of thinking, you’re not missing anything. Shore power receptacle is 30 Ampres, but as I recall the provided adapter had the standard household male plug to receive an extension cord.
 
The reason you “need” a 30 amp cord is exactly what the FWC person said. The camp site 30 amp connection is protected with a 30 amp breaker. If you have a wire down stream of that breaker that can’t handle 30 amps, the breaker won’t protect it from current above the cord’s capacity but below the breaker’s trip level.

From a practical standpoint one might choose to use a smaller cord and limit the current drawn by paying attention to what you turn on. As mentioned above, if you turn everything on, even the Iota charger, in a camper that does not have air conditioning, you should be below 15 amps as long as you don’t plug anything into the 120vac outlet.

The 30 amp breaker likely still would blow and prevent fire if something cut your cord and grounded the hot wire because the fault current would be much higher than 30 amps, assuming your cord isn’t super long.

The conservative way to use a smaller cord with a 30 amp breaker you can’t change is to add another in-line breaker at the 30 amp connection to properly protect the cord. However, most people plugging a household 12 gage or smaller cord into a 30 amp source just make or buy an adapter and don’t add a breaker because they don’t know the concerns or because they knowingly accept the risk.

Here is an example of an in-line breaker product that could be used. This was just my first search hit to show the type of product. I have no idea if this particular product is of good quality.
 
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In most electrified campgrounds we've been to, there's a 20a outlet, a "regular" 3-prong one you'd find in your house. So I don't think it's a problem if you plug into 20a shore power.

The 30a outlets you see require a different plug. We did buy such an adapter and have only used it once. The vast majority of places have 20a outlets. We used to go to lots of state parks in the early days of our camper. Now that I think about it, the 30a adapter with a "regular" home style extension cord was not a good idea... I should get rid of that adapter. Unsafe.

(Nowadays, we have a lithium battery and can last 3 days without charging, so we don't even use shore power when it's available.)

Maybe there's a 20a fuse adapter that can go on the shore side of the cord? I have no idea if such a thing exists.
 
Jon R said:
The reason you “need” a 30 amp cord is exactly what the FWC person said. The camp site 30 amp connection is protected with a 30 amp breaker. If you have a wire down stream of that breaker that can’t handle 30 amps, the breaker won’t protect it from current above the cord’s capacity but below the breaker’s trip level.

From a practical standpoint one might choose to use a smaller cord and limit the current drawn by paying attention to what you turn on. As mentioned above, if you turn everything on, even the Iota charger, in a camper that does not have air conditioning, you should be below 15 amps as long as you don’t plug anything into the 120vac outlet.

The 30 amp breaker likely still would blow and prevent fire if something cut your cord and grounded the hot wire because the fault current would be much higher than 30 amps, assuming your cord isn’t super long.

The conservative way to use a smaller cord with a 30 amp breaker you can’t change is to add another in-line breaker at the 30 amp connection to properly protect the cord. However, most people plugging a household 12 gage or smaller cord into a 30 amp source just make or buy an adapter and don’t add a breaker because they don’t know the concerns or because they knowingly accept the risk.

Here is an example of an in-line breaker product that could be used. This was just my first search hit to show the type of product. I have no idea if this particular product is of good quality.
Click to expand...
Thanks for input. Couple of points....I have enough solar [2 large Zamp panels] and DC/DC charging capacity for my 100amp BB and we are 99% off-road so "needing" external power is very rare....then I use the 20amp source, not 30amp...use 110v in shop once a month to float the BB charge....but do carry a 50 extension for "what if" events when traveling...

Can't really understand why I would need a 30amp breaker if Hawk has 15amp breakers in the circuits...ignorant of electronics but assume if the Hawk sees above 15amps coming in the breaker opens; no current...by it seems that a 20 amp extension cord between even a 30amp 110 source and the Hawk could easily handle even a surge above the 15amps..do understand that 30amp outlet will probably be a 220 source and while I have an adapter for that, I have never had to use it...most probably never will...

But then again nothing so simple I can't make more complicated! :cool:
 
JonR makes a very good point… the breaker is designed to protect not your stuff, but the power cord and the wiring leading to the campground post. Our campers typically have 120v 15A breakers inside to protect the camper and its stuff.. i.e., breaker/fuse goes between power source and wires leading to loads.

I don’t think i have ever seen 220v on a campground post…. Just variations on the 110V schema.
 
Help me here...you mean 30amps from a CG power station would damage my 15/20 amp extension cord ["power cord"] but not the circuits in the Hawk because the 15 amp breakers would shut the flow off? My assumption was the instant the flow exceeded the 15 amp limit of the breakers in the Hawk they would open and all current flow would stop....can't understand how with the "downstream" 15 amp breakers my extension cord to the camper would ever experience a 30 amp current? Unless disconnected at camper and grounded.

But again, this all above my pay grade...

Phil
 
The key is to remember to think of the wiring and circuit protection response to both excessive loads and fault conditions.

The camper’s main external power connector, the wiring from the connector to the camper’s circuit breaker panel, and the main (#1) breaker are rated for 30 amps. From there the branch circuit breakers protect the smaller downstream camper wiring.

If for example you use a 50 foot 14 awg extension cord and adapters to connect a 30 amp rated campsite receptacle to your camper, all will be fine if you draw less than 15 amps and nothing damages your cord. If you draw more than 15 amps by plugging something in beyond the installed equipment (such as an electric space heater or power tool), the voltage drop at rhe camper will become excessive at some current level well below 30 amps, which can damage some equipment, especially items with electric motors like your fridge or the power tool. The cord will get hot from the excessive current. If you pay attention to what you connect and turn on, you can manage things to prevent an overload.

For hot to neutral or hot to ground faults caused by damage to your extension cord, a standard thermal 30 amp breaker could allow very high current to flow for several seconds before the breaker blows. This could injure someone or start the cord on fire. However, if the camp site box has a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI), it will trip in less than a tenth of a second.

Thr FWC person was giving you the correct answer for a properly protected electrical supply, and I’m sure they are told to give only code-correct answers on electrical power supply questions. If you are careful about loads and about protecting your cord from damage, it’s low risk to do what you propose, but it’s not really the right way to do it because the under-sized cord isn’t adequately protected by the circuit breaker at its source end.
 
+1 to what JonR said. In even planer speak, if you were to accidentally drop your super sharp axe on the extension cord, what is protecting the cord and YOU from a shock? The breaker at the post. Your camper breakers don't even see that.
 
Jon Most excellent explaining! I wanted to reinforce, may I add to your postings. Feel free to correct if I'm confusing. ;)

Another way of looking at it. Your house has a main breaker and a whole bunch of smaller rated breakers. Typically you will see 15amp breaker with 14 gauge wiring (lights) and 20 amp breakers with 12 gauge wiring (outlets).

Each run has calculated certain amount of load draw to not exceed the breaker. Kitchen and shops would have the most potential for overloading the outlets and trip the breaker. Duh, why did I turn on that microwave with the toaster oven and coffee maker, etc.... So, if you run too many appliances that exceeds the breaker amps, the wires will generate heat and hopefully trip the breaker quickly to prevent a fire.

So each run from breaker to light or outlet is matched for your average amp draw. In the situation with a campground breaker supply that is 30 amp and as Jon has warned, you use a extension cord that is not rated for 30 amps to supply the camper it can generate heat if something happens between the main breaker in the camper and the campground breaker. This includes the camper plug and wiring inside to the breaker.

The camper breaker and then to your inside appliance is wired to match and the breaker can protect your appliances inside. But as Jon mentioned you can have damage if the extension cord has a failure that is in play in the total run.

Most extension cords are not rated to 30 amps, so as Jon has suggested have a pigtail breaker that you plug into the campground that matches your extension cord rating. Having it a GFIC is a plus.

Or, as again Jon mentioned, roll the dice and never draw more amps than the extension cord is rated. But beware that you can not safely protect the extension cord from acts of nature, animals or humans being humans doing things.
 
Everybody has been very patient with my bonehead comments...BUT I understand the extension cord to the Hawk exterior plug is vulnerable to melting and will cease to carry current if the gauge will not support the current load....what does not compute to me is how a 30 amp cord is needed if internally the Hawk has 15amp breakers to stop any incoming current if 15 amps is exceeded...are you folks saying that the real danger of melting/fire is interior from the electrical connector on the outside of my Hawk? If I draw 25 amps in appliances inside the camper but only draw less than the 15 amp breaker settings with a 15 amp extension cord from power stand to exterior of my Hawk, I only see the extension cord being in peril, not anything inside my Hawk. Are you saying that between the Hawk exterior plug and the interior circuits with the 15 amp breakers damage will occur due to an extension cord that can't carry the amperage at the power source? I envision a 15 amp extension cord not being able to pass/carry say an internal 25 amp draw as being the weak link [like a fusible link] which would fail, melt; not any interior wiring. I see only the exterior extension cord being at risk of failing and then only if amperage draw in that cord exceeds the wire rating.

Sorry to be such a pain in the ass, but if I can conceptualize these variables I can work within the limits, otherwise I am flying blind.

Why would we ever need a 30 amp extension cord with 15 amp breakers in the circuit? Can the interior current past the 15 amps breakers ever reach 30 amps?

Thanks again, do appreciate the education, hope I can absorb it! :cool:

Phil
 
I an surprised to see that Camco sells a simple adapter for this for $9 US.

That’s a bold move by Camco. It’s inconsistent with the technically correct and conservative advice offered by FWC. My personal opinion is that this being offered for sale tells you the limited value of an “ETL listing.” That lab apparently simply verifies the item can handle the rated current, but does not asses whether it meets electrical codes or is appropriate from a system safety standpoint. In fact, it appears to be intended to defeat required safety features. I imagine if an electrical inspector found that during an inspection they’d flag it for the reasons we’ve discussed. I would like to think Underwriters’ Laboratories would have declined to approve it for that reason, but I don’t know that.

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Hi Phil,

The only potential danger to your camper and its equipment from a 15 amp rated extension used to connect to camp site power is undervoltage at high current (above 15 amps) possibly causing burnout of a motor. The undervoltage would be due to the voltage drop caused by running high current through a too-small wire.
Wallowa said:
Everybody has been very patient with my bonehead comments...BUT I understand the extension cord to the Hawk exterior plug is vulnerable to melting and will cease to carry current if the gauge will not support the current load....what does not compute to me is how a 30 amp cord is needed if internally the Hawk has 15amp breakers to stop any incoming current if 15 amps is exceeded...are you folks saying that the real danger of melting/fire is interior from the electrical connector on the outside of my Hawk? If I draw 25 amps in appliances inside the camper but only draw less than the 15 amp breaker settings with a 15 amp extension cord from power stand to exterior of my Hawk, I only see the extension cord being in peril, not anything inside my Hawk. Are you saying that between the Hawk exterior plug and the interior circuits with the 15 amp breakers damage will occur due to an extension cord that can't carry the amperage at the power source? I envision a 15 amp extension cord not being able to pass/carry say an internal 25 amp draw as being the weak link [like a fusible link] which would fail, melt; not any interior wiring. I see only the exterior extension cord being at risk of failing and then only if amperage draw in that cord exceeds the wire rating.

Sorry to be such a pain in the ass, but if I can conceptualize these variables I can work within the limits, otherwise I am flying blind.

Why would we ever need a 30 amp extension cord with 15 amp breakers in the circuit? Can the interior current past the 15 amps breakers ever reach 30 amps?

Thanks again, do appreciate the education, hope I can absorb it! :cool:

Phil
Click to expand...

I think i now understand your question.

Your circuit breaker panel in the camper has the number 1 circuit breaker used “backwards” as the main breaker rated at 30 amps - that breaker feeds into the panel bus bar from the external connector. The other three are 15 amp branch circuit or load breakers. Each of those branch circuit breakers would nominally allow 15 amps before they trip. So if you load them all up by plugging extra stuff into the 120 vac outlets and turning on all the camper equipment, the total load would be the sum of the current drawn by the three breakers. That could reach 45 amps if the main breaker allowed it, but the main limits the total panel current to 30 amps. (In fact, because one of those three load breakers is dedicated to the Iota charger and it only draws about 4 amps maximum, that breaker will only draw 4 amps.).

The only thing stopping you from attempting to draw more than 15 amps through your 15 amp rated extension cord is you paying attention to your total load. Again, if you don’t plug any extra, high-current equipment into the outlets, your camper will not exceed 15 amps total even with all its factory equipment turned on (assuming no air conditioning).
 
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Jon R said:
Hi Phil,

The only potential danger to your camper and its equipment from a 15 amp rated extension used to connect to camp site power is undervoltage at high current (above 15 amps) possibly causing burnout of a motor. The undervoltage would be due to the voltage drop caused by running high current through a too-small wire.


I think i now understand your question.

Your circuit breaker panel in the camper has the number 1 circuit breaker used “backwards” as the main breaker rated at 30 amps - that breaker feeds into the panel bus bar from the external connector. The other three are 15 amp branch circuit or load breakers. Each of those branch circuit breakers would nominally allow 15 amps before they trip. So if you load them all up by plugging extra stuff into the 120 vac outlets and turning on all the camper equipment, the total load would be the sum of the current drawn by the three breakers. That could reach 45 amps if the main breaker allowed it, but the main limits the total panel current to 30 amps. (In fact, because one of those three load breakers is dedicated to the Iota charger and it only draws about 4 amps maximum, that breaker will only draw 4 amps.).

The only thing stopping you from attempting to draw more than 15 amps through your 15 amp rated extension cord is you paying attention to your total load. Again, if you don’t plug any extra, high-current equipment into the outlets, your camper will not exceed 15 amps total even with all its factory equipment turned on (assuming no air conditioning).
Click to expand...


Jon and all the others...many thanks...I missed that the incoming power line had a 30amp breaker inside the Hawk....then the division of amps to the other 3 breakers [15amp] makes sense...and that the extension cord could lessen not just the maximum incoming amperage but could reduce voltage.

Specifically the the potential damage or dangers to the Hawk with a extension cord less than the maximum amperage draw would be: #1 Overheating/damage to the extension cord, and #2 Due to insufficient voltage to the water pump/roof fans/heater fan/fridge it could damage the motors in those appliances.

I had bought a 50 foot 30amp cord sometime ago for use in shop but it is like a large Anaconda; and heavy on the exterior plug of Hawk...tough to handle and takes up a lot of storage space...may compromise and buy a 20amp cord and be judicious with what I run at the same time in the Hawk.

Again, appreciated the patience shown with my endless questions and the shared wisdom.

Phil
 
I’m happy to help, Phil, as I’m sure the others are, too. Asking questions about electrical safety persistently until you are confident you understand the issues is a sign of intelligence and common sense, not of being a “bonehead!”
 
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Ha! To muddy the water "Yes, Four Wheel Campers (FWC) typically come with a pigtail electrical cable. This pigtail adapter allows you to connect the camper’s 30A plug to standard 15A power cords."...and my 2016 Hawk did come with this pigtail; one end of pigtail at camper 30amps, other end 15amps and this from FWC....found 20 amp cords but male and female ends will not work in Hawk or wall socket of my shop; one blade horizontal, one vertical...to top it off my "Anaconda" 10awg extension I bought believing it was a 20amp cord...has a small tear off tag saying 15amp...no idea why 10awg would be rated only to 15amps.....perhaps the vertical straight blade plugs are the limiters....Grrrrr.

Screw this, will try to find a 30 amp cord that will screw into my exterior Hawk 30amp plug and then search to an adapter for male end to work in my straight blade wall plug....or if needed at CGs.

Out here.

Phil

Just ordered...in a penny in a pound......both returnable, hope screw on female end works on Hawk.


Track package

Nilight 30 Amp 50FT RV Locking Extension Cord 125V Heavy Duty 10 Gauge Pure Copper STW Wire ETL Listed 3 Prong TT-30P L5-30R 30F/30M Weatherproof Cord Suit for RV Camper Trailer
Sold by: Amazon.com Services, Inc

$98.10
Buy it again

RV Camper Cord Adapter 15A Male to 30A Female 12inch Power Connector (CR1530)
Sold by: Hey RV

$19.99
 
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Jon...this is the style of pig tail that came with the Hawk...but the brand used by FWC was Furrion..

30 amp screw down female end to Hawk and 15 amp straight blade male plug on other end...same male/female plugs as pig tail above that I ordered along with 30 amp cord...my thinking was that using the FWC camper pig tail with screw on female plug would not be as water tight as new one I was ordering....will re-think that.

Thanks...Phil


RV Adapter Cord Twist-Lock 30 Amp to 15 Amp 12 inch Length NEMA 5-15P to L5-30R RV Power Adapter Plug Heavy 3 Prong Male Plug with 10 AWG 100% Copper Wiring RV Generator Adapter UL ETL Listed, Opens in a new tab
 
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