Death Valley 2nd time, didn't turn out so well

[12valve]

View attachment 14060I went to DV a few weeks ago with a friend and had a more than great time. Went again with my wife, different result. Well..... we had a good time, but it was not what we expected or wanted. Made it about 7 miles down to Eureka Dunes when there was a truck parked in the middle of the road. I slowed to 5mph to pass and all of a sudden the most horrible, gut wrenching sound started coming from my front end. Stopped. Started up again, same sound. I have manual hubs so I took it out of 4wd, same sound. This is not looking good. Started to snoop around the front and noticed that ALL 8 of my lug nuts on the right front were loose, 3 of them gone. The rim was just rattling around the hub. Trip over. The truck was going nowhere. I managed to get 2 off, hoping to get the wheel off. I could not get the last 3, the nut would just spin with the stud. What to do? All of this happened as Eugene, the driver in the other truck was watching. He could not help, nobody could at this point, so he went on to E. Dunes. Terri and I looked at each other and thought, oh well, now what. So we took a hike for a few hours into the mountains to our East. Had a great time. Set up camp, enjoyed a bottle of wine, slept well. Next day we packed up the truck, locked it, loaded up a daypack with clothes and food and waited for some cars to leave the dunes. Eugene came by and since he was leaving, gave us a ride to Big Pine. Then to Independence. While there a clerk overheard our dilemma and mentioned that M&S Towing was down the street. Bruce and John were the nicest, most helpful people ever. They arranged their truck to go back and get ours, all on AAA's dime. We all jumped in and 6 hours later were back at their station. We were exhausted so we checked into a room. Next day, John had arranged for another tow truck to come up from California City to pick us up at 8 AM. Loaded up once again and 7 hours were home in Ventura. Took us exactly 48 hours from breakdown to home. Not to mention a few extra $$$$ towing. All in all, it could have been a LOT worse, both in dollars and more important, injury to ourselves. Interesting in that during all of this, there was NO hint that something was going wrong, no vibration in the steering wheel, no change in handling of the truck. Trust me on this, I am acutely aware of my truck and all of its vibrations, noises and characteristics. The trip was interesting in all the people we met, folks we would never really talk to or hang out with. They were all super nice, friendly, helpful and just polite.
The first picture is the rim after two nuts were removed. You can see how the others were falling into the hub
After we got home, I tore it apart and found these gems inside the hub.

 

[12valve]

This picture shows the spindle. You can see how 3 of the 4 jam nuts have been ripped off. The 4th doesn't look so good.
The disc hat had these holes blown out by the pressure of the studs and nuts jamming inside the hub. Pure carnage.

 

[ski3pin]

Wow, what a story. Glad it all went well after it went so bad. Nice to see you two stayed so level headed through your "adventure." What is your vehicle?

 

[busboy66]

Wow. You two were lucky. Sounds like you handled it well. Hopefully it doesn't cost you a bunch to fix.

I had a front wheel bearing sieze at 50 MPH on a curvy road with steep drops to the ocean with my 2 kids in the vehicle. The bearing siezed stopping the wheel. Took out the hub and severely damaged the spindle. Luckily it happened on a straight stretch, luckily the wheel stayed on. Same as you, absolutely no warning.

 

[4llamas]

Glad you are okay, that could have been a disaster. I appreciate your good attitude.

 

[Lighthawk]

Great photo of the shrapnel inside the hub.
I've done the 'tow the vehicle out of DV with the family scenario' too.

Hopefully the repair/tow was not too expensive. I always look back at these sort of things and see them in a fondly told remembrance later.

 

[SunMan]

Having had a Death Valley mishap of my own I can appreciate the severity of your situation. Glad it wasn't worse, as far out there as you were, that could have happened in a lot of worse places. Glad you made it out safe. Gnarly.

 

[craig333]

I'm a slow learner. Had all five lug nuts on my jeep come off, tire goes rolling down a hill. Didn't damage the threads somehow and another Jeep had a spare set of lug nuts. Talk about lucky. Didn't learn though. Driving my old truck in a snowstorm at tahoe, same thing as you, tire nearly ready to come off. As the tow truck exited the highway they closed the road behind us.

I check lug nuts frequently now. You were pretty lucky. Not all towing companies will travel offroad.

 

[brp]

I can't understand how everything became so mangled? What do you think was the first failure that caused the avalanche?

I'll give you a lot of credit for keeping cool and even managing to have fun. If that happened to me I would get really stressed out.

 

[UglyScout]

I had the same thing happen on an IH Scout years ago - towing a boat to add to the trouble. I blame it on someone trying to steal my wheels OR improper torquing when someone (me most likely) changed a tire last.

I didn't notice it until the wheel had hammered the wheel studs enough to destroy the 1) wheel 2) hub body 3) spindle 4) brake rotor 5) 4x4 locking hub 6) outer axle shaft. Yep the whole outer assambly needed to be replaced.... OUCH!

 

[12valve]

So the 10,000 dollar question is how did this happen. To go back a bit, about 7-8 months ago, the same thing happened. I thought that the tire people did not tighten the lugs correctly, so I took the truck back and they fixed the problem to my satisfaction. About 3-4 months ago, I switched the left rear to the right front. Because of what had happened earlier, I was super careful to tighten the lugs slowly, cross pattern, bringing them up to 115 lbs. When that wheel let go, I knew something was not good. After returning and talking to a bunch of people, entertaining a number of theories, my problem is the sum of several things, a perfect storm, if you will. I post this because I hope nobody ever has this problem again. I drive a 1996 Dodge 2500 single cab diesel 4x4. Far from stock. The front end alone weighs about 6200 lbs, quite a lot. I think that only heavy full size trucks are suspect, not smaller ones. On my rear tires, the lug nuts will capture about 1" of thread. Because of design differences, the front only captures about 1/2" of thread. Pretty short. I ran a tap down the threads of the lug nuts because somebody mentioned stripping. They were not, which I knew, but I wanted to check anyway, but a lot of dirt and rust came out. I ran the tap only 1/2" in, the same depth as the studs. So now I have a minimum amount of dirty thread capturing only 1/2" of stud. Problematic. If you look at the pictures you will see one with three lug nuts. The larger one is the new one I will be installing. The new smaller one is from my initial problem 7-8 months ago. The last is original. See how galled the original nut is over the newer one. This will result in poor surface contact. Notice how little surface area would contact the wheel from the old style of lug nut, about 1/8", maybe 3/16". This nut was also burrowing into the wheel from repeated tire rotations. Look at the chamfer on the new wheel and compare it to the distorted chamfer on the original wheel. Also look at the galling of the aluminum from the nut. Not is only is there a small area of contact, but the contact surface is poor. So even with the wheel properly tightened, it is not correct. With the heavy front end, poor surface quality and contact, dirty lug nuts, short threads and all the torque and forces that go through it when braking, cornering, turning the wheels, hitting bumps, potholes, dirt roads, it starts to loosen the nuts. The perfect storm. I do not have this problem with the rear wheels because more threads are captured and the forces are very different. I will fix them though. I will be cutting a new chamfer on the old wheels to make them flat and smooth, providing a proper seat for the new lug nuts. So I recommend to those who have heavy trucks to check the lug nuts, the seat of them on the wheel. If you are starting the process I went through, I would change the nuts and clean up the chamfer the wheels.

 

[chnlisle]

Just as a point of interest, are you using after market wheels?

 

[12valve]

Yes. They are not hub centric, but lug centric. The chamfer on the wheel is the same as other wheels I looked at for comparison. It should not make a difference if the wheel is hub or lug centric.

 

[chnlisle]

I ask because many years ago I had a similar problem ( not to that extent) on a Bronco II when I put alloy wheels on it. I've been a steel wheel guy ever since. I don't really know if that makes a diff. Just thought I'd go back to OEM and the problem didn't reoccur.

 

[12valve]

The reason I don't think hub centric wheels are the cure is because so many wheels are now lug centric. Almost every truck I look at, and I have been looking, the fronts are lug centric. Hard to tell on the rear with a glance, the front is easy. After seeing how the lug nuts were working their way through the aluminum, I really think that is the heart of the problem, the other stuff just added to the mix. Believe me, I will be watching how the new lug nuts contact the aluminum, long term.

 

[busboy66]

For those of you like me who didn't know lug centric vs. hub centric:

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Hub-Centric-Vs-Lug-Centric

I assumed incorrectly all wheels were the same. This is good info 12Valve - again, thanks for sharing.

 

[generubin]

Steel wheels are designed to flex at the lug nuts, like a big lock washer keeping a constant tension. Alloy wheels are known for the lug nuts coming loose as they have no resiliency. I stick with steel wheels, always have, for the fact they stay tight, never crack, and never shatter. Plus, if you do need to dismount a tire off the wheel and remount it, steel is much easier.

 

[12valve]

I know that steel wheels have advantages over alloy, but in all of my years of driving off road, I have never have had any issues with alloy. If you shatter one, you are going too fast. I know they break instead of bending, but I have never had anything like that happen to me. In all of my years of driving, I have never have had any issues with my lug nuts coming off, no matter what wheel I am using. Alloy is not bad, however from my recent experience, I have learned that they must be installed using the correct materials. From all of my talking and research, and I have done a lot, not one person has mentioned that lug nuts on alloy wheels tend to work loose. When I bought mine, the truck already had alloy, they were too large for what I wanted. I just reused the lug nuts that came with them. Now, a bit older and wiser, I know better.
As well, I made a typo in my first post, my front end weighs 4200, not 6200 pounds.

 

[Bat]

From all of my talking and research, and I have done a lot, not one person has mentioned that lug nuts on alloy wheels tend to work loose.
I agree never had a problem with Aluminum wheels and lugs but mine are hub centric wheels and do fit tight. I have the habit with my oil changes to grab my torque wrench and give my lugs a quick check.

 

[BillM]

I carry one spare, a repair kit and a compressor. I've never had more than one flat at a time (so far). I have seen chunks of alloy on a back road from someone not so fortunate. That was enough to make me stick with steel, if you have to drive out on a flat, steel will deform but not break.