Hole in affordable pop top availability market (opinion)

[Freebird]

Somebody NEEDS to be making/developing an affordable light weight foam/fiberglass pop top camper base.
I see a big availability HOLE in the market there.
Part of what makes the XP Camper SO expensive is the VERY nice high end $$ but unnecessary molded fiberglass interior. Also the raising top (walls/ceiling) contribute to cost since another big piece of camper has to be molded and finished. Yes, it is VERY nice, but unobtainable to MOST young camping families, and that is where I believe the largest demand is.
The wood rot problem and aluminum thermal transfer issues would both be sidestepped, and I believe it could be produced competively if built with a conventional (wood cabinet) camper interior-if economies of scale/production numbers could be achieved.
Producing it in Texas somewhere near Houston where fiberglass resin production is centered (saving trucking costs), and in Texas where labor costs and taxes are not west coast high would help keep production costs down.
Just a pipe dream at this point, but I believe a business case could certainly be made for it if the economy continues to wobble along at this semi reasonable level. I believe someone would do it if there were more confidence in where the economy is likely headed.
It could easily be made lite enough for the new aluminum F-150 to easily pack around, too, which would be a savings over the superduty needed for heavier truck campers.
Obviously all of the above is just opinion, and I know it, so keep a reasonable perspective on the responses....

Moved by Freebird to new topic to avoid a thread hijack.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Sounds like a business opportunity to me.

 

[Happyjax]

I agree to!

 

[Stitch]

Ah yes, the Holy Grail of TCs. While a most worthy goal, the idea of an inexpensive composite TC rests solely on the volume of production... and that, I'm afraid is the limiting factor.

In many complex 3D applications, composites will save weight... particularly carbon fiber vacuum molded parts. Most campers, however, are pretty much linear in design, which makes aluminum and wood an equally light and more cost effective solution.

Don't get me wrong, Freebird, I'm all in for a thermally tight TC that doesn't get consumed by dry rot or termites, but one of the big cost challenges for mass production of composites are the creation and maintenance of the molds... and, most importantly, the amortization of those molds... believe me, they ain't cheap. This is why (IMHO) XPCampers and Hallmark tend to the pricier side. They have to amortize the costs of the molds and the materials. Sweet campers, yes, but they cost a lot to make.

All that said, if a manufacturer was to create a very basic, linear TC design, you might be able to keep the mold cost down and be able to produce reasonably priced TC, but I'm afraid the weight savings your trying to achieve would still be minimal.

 

[Freebird]

Your right. Lite weight has already been achieved, and quite easily with a plain old wood skeleton. Has been for years.
What would be achieved with fiberglass bonded foam would be predictable longevity combined with VERY low maintenance.
Wood framed campers can be long lived with various material exterior sidings, but to assure long term integrity requires inspections and re-sealing on a regular (not necessarily frequent) basis. Commonly there are few to no early indicators of a leaking problem, so it can be serious+ when detected. This is especially true in damp or high humidity climates when stored outside. Also, an aside, but relevant point being the majority of Americans are very busy, and not stellar at taking time (or $) for preventive maintenance...
Note too that traditional screwed/nailed wood skeleton constructed campers are not particularly resistant to off road rough and tough forces unless glued/bonded together VERY well (including skeleton to skin plus to structural foam) during the building process making pretty much a "unibody" camper base. There are construction techniques that can make a wood framed bonded camper real tough and unlikely to die of wood rot, but the cost would be up in the foam/fiberglass vicinity, and people with past bad experiences with wood rot wouldn't look past the wood frame construction.
I'm not claiming to be a expert on camper construction, just summarizing observations from what I have seen and heard, both in life, and on the 'net.
An example, Northern Lite is currently building quality foam fiberglass bonded whole hard side campers from molds with top quality interior wood cabinets without a large premium over comparable campers with high quality interiors. Bigfoot built them too, until losing some of their management in a plane crash, then being hit by the recession. Note that B.C, where both are/were located is not an area of low labor cost, low tax rates, nor close to the petrochemical/resin center of the universe called Houston.
School me if more information is needed for me to see the whole picture. I know there are a lot of people smarter than me with different life experiences on this forum, so I'm listening....

 

[Stitch]

I think that you're tracking, Freebird. I personally like the idea of a whole composite camper from the thermal efficiency standpoint. My point of reference with composites revolves around aircraft, where you're constantly trading between weight and strength. You want the airframe strong enough for its intended purpose, but as light as you can possibly get away with. For the high end stuff you're talking about refrigerated pre-preg honeycomb sheets laid in a mold, put under a vacuum and baked in a very large oven for a period of time. There's a great deal of capital investment required for that process vice a jig board that you pop aluminum extrusions into and TIG it all together. However, you can build a fine small aircraft simply using hotwired foam and a hand layup of S-glass cloth. Same basic approach could work for a camper shell.

Perhaps my previous comments were too bounded by an aircraft designer's eye for utter efficiency. There are certainly techniques to construct composite structures that would be less costly for building a camper shell... you'll just have to accept a higher finished weight as the tradeoff. Obviously NL is making it happen. Maybe someone else will take on the challenge for a pop-up.

Congrats on your new NL, BTW.

 

[Freebird]

Thanks, stitch.

Aircraft designs have huge tech challenges and trade offs not faced by camper design. I have been following the use of "plastic fantastic" aircraft development and experimental/home built aircraft for quite a while. Very interesting stuff!
My recent visit to Northern Lite factory was interesting, but no surprises. They use techniques the fiberglass boat industry has been using for decades. I do think they are overall doing an admirable job. Good enough that I bought one of their used campers recently.
I'm just mentally ruminating here about the benefits of the transfer of bonded foam fiberglass techniques to a pop top camper base (tub?)
Maybe inspire someone to take up the challenge? It would be great if one of the financially stronger pop top companies would transition to offering a model, but I think the location of manufacturing (as mentioned in OP) could be a factor in success. Setting up the process of manufacturing such a product wood be financially intensive, so the location "tailwind" would be helpful.

Btw, I see a value to using "pop up" to describe Alaskan and XP campers where the roof and sides raise together, and "pop top" to describe the campers where just the roof raises....
That gives a more specific visual image, but I think that horse is well out of the barn. Lol

 

[ntsqd]

I've seen a couple home builds where a foam panel is cut and edge-bonded to other cut foam panels, and the whole is overlaid with resin & fiber. I believe that's Pods' approach and there was such a camper built by a fellow up somewhere in OR whom I have not seen post in ages.

I'm not likely to go into camper production, but a clamshell pop-up camper (aka "Alaskan" type) built by this method is very appealing. Biggest issue that I see with such a design is building the anchoring points. Such a construction type doesn't deal with point loads very well, so some engineering needs to happen in those areas.

 

[Stitch]

Aye, that's the devil in the details. Composite construction requires hardpoints to provide crush/shear strength necessary to bolt bits onto the shell... jack brackets, roof rack runners, door hinges, door lock mechanisms, lift struts/linear actuators, etc. Easier to design with a wood or aluminum frame since the crush strength is already built in. Certainly doable for composites, but it does require a bit more thought in the design.

 

[MarkBC]

... and there was such a camper built by a fellow up somewhere in OR whom I have not seen post in ages.
...

Maybe you're referring to Home Skillet's carbon fiber composite build?

 

[Freebird]

It is not at all unreasonable to use "some" wood stratigically placed for points of attachment (Northern Lite does I believe).
Wood can be sealed with epoxy resin, then all points when drilled n screwed can/should be sealed, too.
One method of sealing the exterior of wood parts DEEPLY is a vacuum is pulled while wood is immersed in a sealing agent (epoxy, etc), then when vacuum is released the sealer is sucked (pulled?) into the "pores" of the wood. Expensive technique. Is any of the camper manufacturers using this technique? It is certainly a technique that can pay way down the calander.
Any plywood in a camper is ideally a marine plywood, which receives special treatment to resist the damage of water. Notice "resist", not "immune" to water damage of the wood over time..

 

[ntsqd]

I believe that is he!

Maybe you're referring to Home Skillet's carbon fiber composite build?

Wood is an effective and inexpensive material to use for gaining Section Modulus, but personally I dislike screwing directly into it with lag type hardware. I much prefer machine threads for longevity, which requires more thinking & planning.

 

[Squatch]

This company posted it's 1st camper on Expedition Portal a few years ago. Neat stuff. Foam core with wood where it was needed for strength. Then the whole thing was sprayed inside and out with a commercial bedliner material. Tough and light and I don't think super expensive. Not in the US though.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/58224-Making-my-Uro-Camper-Kubic-1-0




http://www.uro-camper.com/web3/

 

[Florida]

I met a camper from Germany in Death Valley that inspected my XP before I dumped it. He said that there was a European/German company that had made fiberglass/composite/carbon campers for a while but had given up and gone back to wood and steel. He was driving a unimog that was rough looking but very functional. I wonder if it was the same company?


Sent from my iPad using Wander The West

 

[enelson]

There are plenty of slide in composite utility bodies. They are durable and haul more weight around then our campers. The problem with the camper industry is the volume is so low that efficient production processes can't be set up. Here's a video of a Miranda shell being built,

They make the full height walk in versions using the same techniques.

 

[cwdtmmrs]

Do you think that manufacturers care if their product has more than a 10 year life? Or, if maintenance cost go up after 5 years? That is it for car companies.

cwd

 

[super doody]

define affordable

 

[Freebird]

http://olivertraveltrailers.com
Take a quick look at Oliver TTs. These are high quality fiberglass TTs that uses more fiberglass/resin materials than a TC, and they use very high quality hardware throughout. Their production numbers are low (at this point) but their price for the larger unit is approx $40k, which is about half of an XP-V1 price. Also note no high $$$ European diesel appliances. Admittedly the Oliver is apparently an established fiberglass product manufacturer, whereas XP is a fledgling company and novice manufacturer.
A high quality, light weight, and reasonably priced TC could be made, but it would be a very tough challenge for an all new, ground up, startup business. Add to that economy that is unpredictable......

 

[smlobx]

I believe that for the most part you're describing Hallmark campers. Their campers are built somewhat like boat hulls although they do use some wood ( but a synthetic coosa material is available).
They use a one piece carbon fiber infused roof which IMHO is the best in the industry....

 

[enelson]

The Oliver trailers look more like Northern Lite construction to me. I love the Northern Lite campers but they are just too big for us. The Hallmark, which we own, is constructed with composite panels that are bonded together with polyurethane to complete the structure. The inside framing, wood in our case, for the cabinets and other appliances floats inside except the for where the appliances and windows tie the inside and outside structure together. The top lifting brackets also tie the inside and composite roof structures together. The Hallmark has a flexible structure that keeps stress risers from damaging the composite panels. The composite panels are pretty thick pieces made by the company C.F. Maier and seem very well made. The camper is durable from getting hit on the side since it doesn't have thin paneling like a FWC, ATC, Alaskan, etc. This is one of the main selling points of the Hallmark.