Most-Ancient Americans -- in Central Oregon! (?)

MarkBC

The Weatherman
Site Team
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
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Location
Bend, Oregon
NPR story this morning:
In Ancient Ore. Dump, Clues To The First Americans?

Based on poo-dating.
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Found near Paisley, Oregon.

This research was published this week in the really-biggy journal, Science.

Hey, retired archaeologist Smokecreek1, what do you think?

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Great stuff Mr. BC! Makes me wonder if an interest in this is how you got your name? :rolleyes:


I've actually meet Mark BC and while in some ways he resembles the BC character, he is obviously has evolved to a higher level! You can tell because he does not wear animal skins and associates with an higher level of human kind!

Smoke:)
 
:LOL:

Okay, a few thoughts on the article. Without getting into which theory about the settlement of the new world is in favor at this time, what you have here is what we called a "public" article that puts together a bunch of catch words (garbage, dump, coprolites ) with some facts about projectile points and dating and some different groups of peoples and some differing views to make a nice interesting article for the non-archaeologist to read. Most of us arkies (and most other "ologists") talk in a world of our own and we tend to forget that without public support, our careers and indeed, the story of the evolution of mankind and civilization could be in trouble because of the beliefs of certain political groups concerning the "flatness" of the earth, etc. People like archaeology and history and this is an article that is written to help them understand what we do and why it's important. That said, I've know Dennis for a long time and he not only knows what he is talking about but he is also good at putting out articles like this for the public. And coprolites are cool, once dug one up in a cave on the shoreline of the Smoke Creek Desert that for sure killed who ever **** it! My first arkie prof. got his Phd. evaluating the coprolites from Lovelock Cave, so I'm sort a partial to them!

:LOL: So here goes some ark talk-----The story of the peopling of the new world (and the world in general) is the story a different groups of people succeeding other groups of people; sometimes it was caused by some climatic change (to much water or not enough) forcing one group to move into a neighbors territory. Sometimes this was by war, sometimes it wasn't. Most of the time this wasn't done by massive waves of Hun like peoples raping and killing their way through Oregon, but family groups here and there replacing, intermingling with, maybe killing those who lived there first.and usually adapting the best parts of the others culture. Different groups did different things, some hunted big game, some small game, some gathered more and different plants, some brought different weapons and tools (like the atalatl replaced the spear, which in return was replaced by the bow and arrow, which was replaced by the flintlock). So, could different people using different cultures live side by side, sure; could one go inland and chase mammoths and one stay where they were and follow their old culture-sure. Read the prehistory of California if you want to see some violent interactions between succeeding cultural groups-lot's of head hunting and war!

I think I've talked to much, get me drunk around a campfire and I'll bore you to death about what happened (we think) out there. Just remember, you have to look at the world how it was when these people were living here thousands of years ago, and visualize what it looked like then, not how it looks now!--it's sort of like one big detective story and you try to make the best guess, based on what you know (or think) is fact-and write a story.
But you never forget, people always do what they what they want to do, not what we think they should do!

Smoke
 
Thanks, Smoke. :)
I don't know if there are other professional archaeologists among WTW members...but until/unless they speak up you're our Resident Arkie!
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(Do I have the power as Site Team Member to make that designation? I guess I do until someone tells me I don't.)

And do you have any thoughts on the Paisley Mosquito Festival?
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I hate mosquito's and refuse to willingly associate with them in any way, shape or form, and except for food for other animals i can see no use for them. A mosquito bit me when I was in the Army and I got malaria- so I got a bone to pick with them, especially the females and I should say, none of my friends are mosquito's!!!

:mad:Smoke
 
I hate mosquito's and refuse to willingly associate with them in any way, shape or form, and except for food for other animals i can see no use for them. A mosquito bit me when I was in the Army and I got malaria- so I got a bone to pick with them, especially the females and I should say, none of my friends are mosquito's!!!

:mad:Smoke

As I understand it...the purpose of the Paisley Mosquito Festival (at least originally) is not to celebrate the insidious insect but as a fund-raiser for mosquito abatement in the area.
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Your mosquito malice would be right at home there!

I've never really attended the Festival, but I once drove through on the way to somewhere else on the Friday-evening kick-off -- lots of cowboys wandering around with cans of beer in their hands.
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As I understand it...the purpose of the Paisley Mosquito Festival (at least originally) is not to celebrate the insidious insect but as a fund-raiser for mosquito abatement in the area.
biggrin.gif
Your mosquito malice would be right at home there!

I've never really attended the Festival, but I once drove through on the way to somewhere else on the Friday-evening kick-off -- lots of cowboys wandering around with cans of beer in their hands.
tongue.gif




Okay, Okay, I may have spoke to soon, and some of my friends my be mosquito's! But where there is abatement--there may be mosquitoes---right?

Smoke:cool:
 
Cool stuff, Mr. BC. There do appear to be multiple explanations of populating the Western Hemisphere, well beyond the Bering Straight scenario we all learned growing up. Who knew ancient poop would be so revealing??? :unsure:
 
The entire geographic area around Summer Lake/Abert Rim/Lake and the poop cave is littered (literally) with village sites, glyphs, pictos, stone circles, standing stones and caves. Really perplexing and intriguing for this non-ologist but very interested amateur. I always appreciate any enlightenment to putting this puzzle together. Thanks SmokeCreek - ;)
 
Good post and great info as early man in America is a favorite topic for many. Does anyone know how Kennewick man (with his supposed non native look) fits into the picture? Or any theories? Do I need to supply beer for this conversation?
 
:LOL:
Me thinks the problem with this mess, was a lack of beer! You guys are trying to get me in trouble arn't you-but I'm retired so here goes my thoughts. The K-Man CF is the perfect example of how not to do something. Remember growing up and how you were told never argue religion, politics and mom's apple pie, that plus a lot of CYA, is the basic problem here. Science, religion, politics, money and a federal law all collide here. Earlier in this thread, I talked about how science says the new world was populated by different groups of people (cultures) arriving here from lot's of places over a long period of time, with each group killing off, inter mingling with, adapting to, bypassing the earlier groups or/and maybe all of the above-that's the scientific view. Allot of Indians believe (for both real or political reasons) that they were always here! Then there are politicians; who passed a law awhile back that said that all "Native American" burials and properties from said burials taken from federal land and now stored at various museums, colleges, etc, had to be returned to the proper Native American Group. That's the heart of this story.

Unfortunately, the K-Man, and the imbedded spear head and his physical body type is from a time that science defines as before the arrival of what is considered the "Native American " physical type-another words, they looked more Pre-European than Eurasian! So there is now tug of war began between science and the Indians. To make matters worse, the Corps of Engineers, intentionally, destroyed the site where K-Man was found so all that's left are the burial and some associated materials-so any data that could be used to verify who's, what's and when's is now gone. The Indians don't care about any of this science stuff and for various reasons just want the K-Man! Power and $, more casinos, more power, the story of the world. Do I sound cynical about the whole thing-yes! From what I gather, a judge has ruled (I think) that science can study the K-man and then they go from there, so you get the science vrs religion thing, with the law not making either side happy-sort of like evolution vrs religion or climate change vrs big oil/God with no compromise and no resolution!

A quick little story that you don't hear about much, a burial was found in a cave in Nevada a while back, and it was almost as old as the K-Man (and was not Native American), the Indians wanted it, the Nevada BLM said "No" it wasn't N/A and believe it or not, the politicians at the top supported the BLM decision and far as far as I know, it's being studied right now! Different folks-different strokes! Another story, years ago, they found some intermingled white and Native American bones in a burial and for years this white skull has been in a box with a bunch of Indian bones, the Indians heard about it and got their bones back and now the poor unknown skull will sit for eternity by itself in his box! Sort of makes me sad, he should have went with his friends , but the law's the law, and power is what's it about, I guess! More grog for me mates!

That help this thread or not.

Smoke
 
Hi Smoke:

I'll gladly give you LOTS of beer for that answer. The big picture is always so interesting but the details are fascinating too, especially when the new datum of 14,500 years ago makes rewriting the ancient timeline necessary. I'd love to know who they were.

I keep hoping that someone will go out on a limb and write a book about who he thinks the K man was, where he came from and maybe even how he got here. With more evidence popping up that just might happen someday. However the book I read some time ago called simply Bones (I've forgotten the author's name but it was a female journalist from Ontario) did a nice job of outlining different theories of who got here, when and from where, but the underling theme was that many archaeologists careers crashed as a result of publishing non mainstream theories even if they were backed up by evidence. As a result apparently many now don't publish or if they do then they wait until late in their careers. But here's hoping for the BEER and more publications and information from all sources. Thanks Smoke - no need to worry, your career won't crash now - guaranteed!
 
I just read an update/addition to this story:

Cave containing early human DNA dubbed historic

From the story:
"A cave in Oregon's high desert where archaeologists have found the earliest DNA evidence of human habitation in North America has been added to the National Register of Historic Places..." AP, 3-Oct, 2014

Seems to me it's more in the category of pre-historic, rather than "Historic"...but what do I know? ;)
 

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