Outfitter or Hallmark - help me decide!

kmehr

Advanced Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2019
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87
Finally has come time to move on from our beloved Jayco sportster 7 and upgrade to something bigger and newer. Have a young son and another on the way, so main thing we’re after is more/better sleeping space. Where narrowed it down to either an Outfitter or Hallmark. Want some experience feedback on those.

So far the non-negotiable are: north/south bed, outside shower, solar, a third bed in addition to the cab over and dinette (ie the tent room of the Juno or a pull out bunk over the dinette).

We’re specifically looking at Apex/Juno/8ft Caribou or the Hallmark Guanella.

Main questions are:

1) is the wet bath worth it?

Currently our jayco doesn’t have a permanent stove as we usually cook outside or set the Coleman on the counter. We don’t have a water tank either and just use some reliance water jugs. Both of these work fine and I honestly imagine we will continue to largely cook outside and having the water jugs on the camp table will continue. All that to say a wet bath would be a huge upgrade for us. Definitely want the outside shower, but not sold on the toilet or inside shower.

On one hand, the shower and toilet would be nice for the late season elk hunts my dad and I do here in colorado and we could start using the camper instead of renting a cabin every year.

On the other, do the toilets stink? I grew up on a houseboat and the holding tanks always smelled. It was a constant battle keeping the poo stink down.

I imagine that snagging either an Apex or Juno without the wet bath would bring weight down a few hundred pounds, which is appealing.

2) is hallmark worth the price? It looks like $10-15l more for a comparable Hallmark. The construction seems very similar, so what sets Hallmark that much higher? Either are in my budget, but still, $15k is $15k…

3) can the weight of the significantly heavier Juno/apex really be “felt” on a 2500 cummins?

Previous truck was an 05 cummins 2500, and recently upgraded to a 22 cummins 2500. My jayco only weighs about 1,400lbs but the new truck handles it much better stock than my 05 did with full Thuren kit and Timbrens.

I have no issue using the Timbrens again or even airbags, and certainly don’t want to start a GVWR debate, just want to know how the heavier ones “feel”. Not going to take it on trails at Moab, but we do hit the forest service roads frequently.

Thanks in advance!
 
I have a 2015 Hallmark Guanella and it's worked great in the six years we've owned it. We use it 1-2 mo/yr and do a lot of back country camping. It works well and we have a ton of fun with it.

To answer your questions: We like the outside shower and water heater and use it regularly. Our Guanella has a Thetford cassette toilet. It works. No stink. Kinda amazing really. How can all that crap not stink?

We have a 2013 F250 short bed crew cab diesel and it hauls everything just fine. Yours shouldn't have any troubles. We have airbags and BFG KO2 all terrain tires, otherwise it's stock. The camper is heavy, Hallmark says 1600 lbs dry. They apparently weigh the unit when they ship. It creaks and groans and I have to go slow going over rocks but it all works. I bought the truck & campter used before I really knew the pop up truck camper market. In hindsight I'd prefer a 350 with an extended cab instead of the crew cab for a shorter wheelbase. . And maybe a flatbed for more space. And a camper built on an aluminum frame instead of the Hallmark's wood frame. But nonetheless, the Hallmark works and is a very comfortable camper.

We bought a very lightly used one year old model. It was in great shape when we bought it but I ended up doing a fair bit of work and replaced a lot of the components, e.g.
  • waterproofed all the stitching in the soft side (don't they expect people to use these things in the rain?)
  • replaced the two big FLA batteries w/ a single LiFePO4 (both are 230Ahr, but the new one can be cycled deeper. We can now go for days without any sun for charging.)
  • replaced the faulty surface mount solar, with normal, functional panels
  • added battery monitors,
  • added a circuit breaker panel (I like lots of breakers and the ability to isolate sub systems),
  • added a DC-DC converter for charging from the truck (I still need to improve the wiring from the truck battery, but the existing long 10 gauge is sorta good enough),
  • Fixed some of the wiring (Hallmark connected the fridge without going through the circuit breaker panel) and put in thicker wire from the battery to the existing circuit breaker panel)
  • added a latch for the vanity cabinet (rough roads were bouncing all the stuff in the vanity onto the floor!)
  • improved the storage areas (added dividers between the bottom cabinets and dividers under the sink and some of the drawers),
  • added dimmers to the under cabinet lights,
  • added USB outlets for charging,
  • replaced about half of the door latches when they break,
  • fixed the drawer slides,
  • added a small inverter,
  • added more outlets,
  • added a sight hole & light for the tank water level, (the provided full, 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 lights are pretty much useless, way better to just see the water level in the tank)
  • repaired the water tank (leaked from the useless water level sensor holes),
  • repaired a busted fitting in the cassette toilet,
  • replaced the "lip seal" in the cassette toilet,
  • added a surge tank to the water pump (less on/off cycling),
  • fixed the fridge door and added a second latch,
  • cable tied the fridge shelves to the fridge to keep them from falling out,
  • replaced the stoves inadequate sparker wires (insulation was too thin, it cracked and the spark would short to the stove's frame).
  • added 5 gal fuel storage on the back,
  • gave away the rooftop AC unit (we're rarely in RV parks with hookups)
  • replaced the front tie down brackets
  • replaced the roof lift crank and kludgy adapters with a battery powered drill and a 3/8 drive socket
  • etc

These campers look really nice from the factory but I felt it needed a bit of customizing and repairs after our first few trips. All that said, the hallmark is a lot of fun to go camping in. Can't wait to get out in September. We're heading back to SE Utah, Bears Ears this time.

Kmehr, I think your best bet is just to buy one or the other, fix what breaks and improve what you can. But most importantly, get out and enjoy using it! Whichever way you go you'll ending up having good trips (and maybe wonder if the other one would have been better).
 
Thank you for this feedback! I’m surprised to hear that about the casette toilet.

We have loved our Jayco and had a lot of great adventures in it, it’s just too small for 4 people and a dog. The cab over bed is not quite a double and is east west. I’m 6’3 so it’s not a lot of extra room to start with. Add a thrashing toddler into the mix and it’s a recipe for no sleep. He needs his own sleeping space and his soon to arrive little brother will too.

I think for a while we were going to move to a travel trailer with bunks but after our last outing, we got rid of that idea and determined we wanted to stay truck camper people. Way better campsite access And less headache.

I’m not far from the factory for both and a visit is in the works.
 
I have a 2017 Hallmark Milner. The advantage of Hallmark is the cabinetry and fridge/stove/furnace are all first rate, better than any camper(at least a dozen) I have had over the years. Moreover you can't beat their service. I'd go with the cassette. With our smaller Milner we just use a portapotti.

Bill
 
Check knee room and head room in wet bath of whatever you’re thinking of buying. I’m 5’9” and in our Hallmark Ute it seems like anyone over 6’ would struggle to use it. I don’t know dimensions of other makes and models.
 
kmcintyre said:
I would take a road trip and visit each factory. Seeing them would really help you decide.
Hoping to do this in the next couple of weeks. They’re about an hour and a half from me. The bummer I found out about Hallmark is we’d be looking at a 14-18 month build time…I don’t think I’m that patient!
 
If you buy used, some Outfitters did have some build quality issues but I don’t know from what time period that would be. The company was founded by a member of the Ward family, which founded Hallmark, and I think I recall that the first ones were built in a corner of a previous Hallmark facility. Since then, they’ve had their own facilities and later the company was bought by someone else and I haven’t tracked them. BTW, check Hallmark website for used ones as they do come up. I think some are trade-ins and some are just postings for private sales elsewhere.
 
Toured outfitter today was really impressed. Going to order as soon as I decide which model. Leaning heavily toward a heavily optioned caribou 8.
 
We’ll we did it, pulled the trigger and put a deposit on a Juno 8.5. Build date should be late next spring, can’t wait! Will certainly post tons of updates as the process moves along.
 
kmehr said:
We’ll we did it, pulled the trigger and put a deposit on a Juno 8.5. Build date should be late next spring, can’t wait! Will certainly post tons of updates as the process moves along.
That wait will allow you to get ready and start ordering upgrades (wiring, etc.)! :) Congrats.
 
kmcintyre said:
That wait will allow you to get ready and start ordering upgrades (wiring, etc.)! :) Congrats.
Definitely. I've only built it on their website configurator about 1,000 times at this point. Right now the one custom item I'm hoping to get added is a 2in receiver on the rear for a swing away bike rack.

Otherwise, going to add the microwave, hopefully get big solar wiring so I can add more later if need be, and there is an option to get the 7.5cubic ft Novacool fridge, but it has to be moved to the other side of the camper and shrinks the dinette some. Waiting to hear how much. Also going to add the pull out hide-a-bed, extra fan, and the scissor steps. Been really going back and forth on the gray siding color. I think it would look awesome, but dang its a very expensive option that is just for looks.
 
Man....that gray is sexy, but 2 grand? You could get a custom vinyl wrap or 2 for that price if you "knew a guy". I wonder why the price is so much.
 
corybrown50 said:
Man....that gray is sexy, but 2 grand? You could get a custom vinyl wrap or 2 for that price if you "knew a guy". I wonder why the price is so much.
My thoughts exactly. Kind of hard to believe there could be a cost associated. I feel like most of their items are fairly priced except for that and adding an extra solar panel. I'm at a point where I want to get it turn key and ready to roll off the lot, but at the same time $775 to install an extra $104 renogy panel is not a good value!
 
When we ordered our Hallmark Ute I requested a number of additional 12-volt accessory outlets and USB outlets in every possible place one might ever be needed by us (a few) or anyone else in future (many more), as the desire to plug in keeps increasing. Each is on its own fused circuit with a switch to each to cut power to reduce parasitic losses some USB ports consume. By build time they found a sort of duplex-looking combo outlet with a single 12-volt accessory outlet next to a round and similarly rubber capped dual USB port. One USB is the basic 5-volt, 5-watt (1-amp) type; the adjacent one is 5-volt, 10-watts (2-amps) for newer devices. I also requested coaxial pre-wiring and bracing for a TV, with one cable to outside for RV park hookup and another through A/C vent opening for any future antenna. We don't use it yet but it might make a good selling point later. And, re A/C, if you don't order it, at least get the bracing and pre-wiring, something every RV should have for future-proofing. I also requested wiring to each corner for electric camper jacks despite my ordering manual jacks. When being built and everything is open, every wire you might dream of us easily routed at little additional cost. Consider some of these, as such a basic order change won't affect your build now and might not incur much cost.

Re USB parasitic power loss, it didn't amount to much and with 300 watts solar and two 6-volt AGMs in series, we could run the Nova-Kool refrigerator indefinitely in sunny weather.

A note re solar panels:. One blocked the SiriusXM antenna on truck so we complained to Sirius and they sent a dash-mount unit that broadcasts the low-powered FM signal to truck antenna. I mounted their supplied Sirius antenna to right front corner of fender via a small bracket attached below side of hood. On a non-metallic camper that would otherwise not block SiriusXM on truck, placement of solar panels on camper roof to avoid signal blockage is an option vs the add-on receiver.

Another camper item: I ordered a Jensen AM/FM/SiriusXM-ready/weather-band stereo and had it delivered to Hallmark for their installation and hookup to the speakers they often install on many rigs, anyway. Hallmark ordered an AM/FM/SiriusXM antenna but I don't recall brand. Watch out; some are XM-only. After receiving camper, I ordered a SiriusXM compatible tuner and mounted it behind Jensen receiver.

So, lots of options for you, including confirmation of what camper manufacturer would order and what you'd order and have shipped to them.
 
michelle_east_county said:
When we ordered our Hallmark Ute I requested a number of additional 12-volt accessory outlets and USB outlets in every possible place one might ever be needed by us (a few) or anyone else in future (many more), as the desire to plug in keeps increasing. Each is on its own fused circuit with a switch to each to cut power to reduce parasitic losses some USB ports consume. By build time they found a sort of duplex-looking combo outlet with a single 12-volt accessory outlet next to a round and similarly rubber capped dual USB port. One USB is the basic 5-volt, 5-watt (1-amp) type; the adjacent one is 5-volt, 10-watts (2-amps) for newer devices. I also requested coaxial pre-wiring and bracing for a TV, with one cable to outside for RV park hookup and another through A/C vent opening for any future antenna. We don't use it yet but it might make a good selling point later. And, re A/C, if you don't order it, at least get the bracing and pre-wiring, something every RV should have for future-proofing. I also requested wiring to each corner for electric camper jacks despite my ordering manual jacks. When being built and everything is open, every wire you might dream of us easily routed at little additional cost. Consider some of these, as such a basic order change won't affect your build now and might not incur much cost.
That's great advice. Having totally gutted and rebuilt our current Jayco I know just how much easier it is to add stuff when starting from scratch! I'm not sure how much longer I have until options need to be set, but I think I've got a few months. The ladder and Yakima tracks are one of those things. I can't imagine what I would put on the roof, and really wouldn't want to have to jump up there on a regular basis, but I could see that being a nice selling feature down the road. (though I really hope this is our last camper ever!). Even when the boys are out of the house my wife and I plan on still using it just the two of us. Though 18 years from now, who knows what would be available....
 
kmehr said:
That's great advice. Having totally gutted and rebuilt our current Jayco I know just how much easier it is to add stuff when starting from scratch! I'm not sure how much longer I have until options need to be set, but I think I've got a few months. The ladder and Yakima tracks are one of those things. I can't imagine what I would put on the roof, and really wouldn't want to have to jump up there on a regular basis, but I could see that being a nice selling feature down the road. (though I really hope this is our last camper ever!). Even when the boys are out of the house my wife and I plan on still using it just the two of us. Though 18 years from now, who knows what would be available....
And don’t do what I did and order one of those asymmetrical rear ladders for campers without a full-width rear skirt like ours is. This is the kind of ladder where rungs only go down as far as top of pickup side but vertical part next to door extends down to near floor of camper. Without a cargo box mounted to a full-width truck hitch step or something to act as a big step, you need a ladder to access the camper ladder, negating any benefit of the camper ladder except for my using it to secure lightweight items like a Camco-bagged garden hose for graywater, or folding chairs. I’ll have to eventually get a telescoping ladder to access roof for snow removal, as popup camper roofs can suddenly collapse lifts and roof if lowered with a heavy snow load, or get a trucker-type long-handled and elbowed extension scraper.
 
Well here she is! Went with a lot of new options like the microwave, 350W of solar and two renege lithium batteries, picked it up last friday and first trip is this weekend.

And of course I can’t get a photo to upload..
 
ok here we go:


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