Reliability Ratings

[Mark W. Ingalls]

All the swagger notwithstanding, which truck is the more reliable?

Should I keep or trade my 1998 F150 with 195,000 miles?

In an effort to make an informed choice, I turned up this interesting website:

MSN Car Reliability Ratings

Here we see the results for two popular 1/2-ton trucks, the Toyota Tundra and Ford F150...

So, how do we interpret the data?
First of all, it appears that older Toyotas had more engine problems than older Fords, but that newer Toyotas have fewer engine problems. But, it could also mean that Toyotas have more problems as the engines age...

Second, it appears that Toyotas have fewer problems with all other vehicle systems than Fords, especially the more recent Fords. But it could also mean that customers order Fancier Fords and Plainer Toyotas...

Third, we note that because Ford released a new design in 2004, that year and 2005 were not included in the graphic. The results for those years, not presented here, show moderate accessory problems 2004 F150s and moderate engine problems for 2005. When Toyota introduces a new design, they may or may not suffer lower reliability for a couple years...
I had accepted the idea that Japanese-owned companies made significantly more reliable products than American-owned companies. Based upon this limited presentation of data, that idea (and especially the legend that Toyota is invincible) might now be called into question.

Edit: Apology to Kyle for having forgotten to link his great thread; and thanks for calling it out, below...

 

[CJ8Rockcrawler]

I asked a similar question not too long ago and had some interesting comments and discussion. You can find the thread here:

FWC Perfect Mate

Of note was the poor reliability rankings of the latest iteration of the Tundra. It has actually caused consumer reports to stop automatically ranking Toyotas as reliable when a new model comes out.

Kyle

 

[brett13]

I'm a Toyota fan myself, but I can't argue with cold hard stats either. Its a tough call for sure. As a new '07 Tundra owner, I can say I haven't had a single problem in 17,000 mi. Each of the three Jeeps I had owned (two new) were in the shop more than on the road and I dumped them before the warranty was up. My GM vehicles were a little better. (I've never owned a Ford- not for any particular reason, I just haven't.) So, my experience is biased towards Toyo- but its annecdotal experience, so it shouldn't really count statistically. In my experience and opinion- I'm sure others will disagree and rightfully so- a Toyota just works like you expect it to. For example, my other vehicles would experience weird things (engine revving, electrical surges, etc.) that couldn't be replicated when I got it to the dealer. They would tell me I'm crazy, that nothing is wrong. Never had that experience with a Toyota and it sold me. Maybe the statistics don't capture the qualitative component of repairs? Don't know, but I'm a happy convert until Toyota gives me a reason not to be.

 

[Mark W. Ingalls]

Mileage ratings by the EPA by vehicle class are also interesting... (no HD trucks are published).

 

[kbennett2000]

Mark - With 195,000 miles on the clock it seems like your F-150 has been a good truck. Is it now starting to show its age or are you just thinking it's time for a change?

Did you look at any of the other makes (Chevy/Dodge/Nissan) or is it just a choice between Ford & Toyota? Not trying to start a brand war, just curious how the rest of the market compared...

Reliability seems to be a very subjective thing... Some years back I had an Acura sedan that threw a rod at just over 100k - pretty early death for a Honda. When I first got my Ram I had it in the shop five times in the first four weeks, all for minor "inconvience" type issues. On paper it would probably look like the Ram was the more unreliable vehicle but my gut feeling would sure disagree...

 

[EdoHart]

I wonder if Toyota and/or Ford introduced new engine models just prior to those years.

Like Brett13, I'm speaking anecdotally, but I had an '87 Toyota with a 22RE (4-cylinder) engine which had a long development history and it was very reliable. It went 200K miles before the timing chain broke. The issue that caused the timing chain to break only became evident after enough vehicles had logged very high mileage.

I still own a '99 Dodge Ram with a 360 CID (5.9L) engine, which also had a long development history. That truck currently has 122K miles with only one warranty repair, two factory recalls, and one out of warranty water pump failure.

How long a design has been in use and/or evolved is something to consider. That can require a lot more research, but given today's new vehicle prices, it's probably worth it.

 

[Mark W. Ingalls]

Mark - With 195,000 miles on the clock it seems like your F-150 has been a good truck. Is it now starting to show its age or are you just thinking it's time for a change?

Did you look at any of the other makes (Chevy/Dodge/Nissan) or is it just a choice between Ford & Toyota? Not trying to start a brand war, just curious how the rest of the market compared...

Reliability seems to be a very subjective thing... Some years back I had an Acura sedan that threw a rod at just over 100k - pretty early death for a Honda. When I first got my Ram I had it in the shop five times in the first four weeks, all for minor "inconvience" type issues. On paper it would probably look like the Ram was the more unreliable vehicle but my gut feeling would sure disagree...

Yes, Kris, these are exactly the questions that whirl around inside my brain. In addition, we would like to have the capacity of two more full doors and a back seat.

So, do I keep the truck I have, add extra springs, maybe swap the engine, risk a transmission rebuild, ..., or do I sell it while it still has some life left and shell out an extra $6k or more to get that bigger truck and a new unknown set of problems?

For me the choice would be either Dodge or Ford; they each have strengths and weaknesses.

I just haven't decided which side of the keep\sell equation had the greater cost savings.

 

[DirtyDog]

For various reasons, I have had a variety of vehicles over the last few years. I had my Hawk on a 2004 F150. Since then I have had a 2006 Tundra and a 2007 FJ cruiser.

I like Toyotas but when it's camper time again, I'll probably go back to Ford. The F150 drove great, had more power, and handled better than the Tundra that followed it. In the roughly 30k miles I had the F150, I had no problems with it. The Tundra had a recall item and occasionally the starter just got jammed and I couldn't turn it at all. Not huge issues, but not quite what I expected either.

There is also the issue of frame flex in the Tundras when hauling a camper. I don't know if you guys remember, but a year or so ago we had a member that had an ATC on quad cab tundra and he was having some pretty serious problems with the truck shimmying while driving. He traded that truck for one of the new Tundra's, which he liked better, but he still wasn't happy with the stiffness of the frame. When I was checking out his rig, he showed me how he could grab the part of the camper that overhangs the cab, with one hand, and move it up and down causing noticeable up and down movement in the junction between the cab and truck bed as the frame flexed. He went on to show me that Toyota had only stiffened the frame over previous versions by welding strips of steel on it - no box frame.

I love Toyotas, but based on my experiences and from what I have seen, American trucks are just a bit stouter for carrying big loads. FWC and ATC campers are light, but you load them up with gear, bikes, and two or three big fellas and you are hauling some serious weight!

 

[brett13]

So, do I keep the truck I have, add extra springs, maybe swap the engine, risk a transmission rebuild, ..., or do I sell it while it still has some life left and shell out an extra $6k or more to get that bigger truck and a new unknown set of problems?


1) all trucks deteriorate over time, i.e. things wear
2) the older the truck, the more worn things are worn (regardless of how well you take care of it), thus the closer to failure more parts/systems are (mean time to failure concept)

I would, personally, rather have a newer truck which is less likely to leave me stuck. All trucks will experience some problems, but you can't predict what they are, so you should leave the luck factor out of the equation (not ignoring reliability stats though). Older/more used trucks = more problems on balance.

I just don't like dealing with the problems, as you can tell. I don't have patience for it and can't tolerate the down time, so my priority has been reliability. Financially, its probably a wash if the older truck needs any significant work. I would prioritize age over model in reliability analysis too (barring any obviously weak models statistically). That's my $0.02, FWIW. Good luck!

 

[Sam]

1) all trucks deteriorate over time, i.e. things wear
2) the older the truck, the more worn things are worn (regardless of how well you take care of it), thus the closer to failure more parts/systems are (mean time to failure concept)

If you have a truck with 20k miles owned by a farmer who drives the fields everyday, or a truck with 60k miles owned by a salesman who drove up & down the interstate everyday, I will assure you the salesman's truck will be in much better shape and last longer without needing repairs. Prior history is crucial when buying used and to me means more than a number on an odometer or model year.

As for reliability data, I have fund it best to visit the various message boards of the vehicle(s) you are interested in, spend some time reading through the posts and you will quickly learn the problem areas of a particular vehicle.

 

[brett13]

If you have a truck with 20k miles owned by a farmer who drives the fields everyday, or a truck with 60k miles owned by a salesman who drove up & down the interstate everyday, I will assure you the salesman's truck will be in much better shape and last longer without needing repairs. Prior history is crucial when buying used and to me means more than a number on an odometer or model year.

I assumed he was comparing new (not new to him) to his old truck. Obviously, what you said is very true, but all else being roughly equal mileage/age does matter.

 

[brett13]

Stumbled upon these ratings today in Barrons:
JD Power: Vehicle Dependability, problems per 100 vehicles after 3 years:

1. Buick 145
1. Lexus 145
5. Honda 169
6. Toyota 178
9. Subaru 192
Industry Average 216
17. Ford 221
18. GMC 222
19. Chevy 226
24. Dodge 236
29. Nissan 274
32. VW 298
36. Land Rover- LAST 398

Obviously its by brand, not vehicle, so its not very useful comparing specific vehicles. And I didn't feel like typing the whole list, so I just picked out the big brands.

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

the last 3 trucks I have had have been ford f-150's

(I didn't choose ford trucks because of preference, but the price was right on each)

If you are looking to save some $$, it might be worth saving your current ford and baby it for awhile -- drive it until it dies.

We have run some of our old Honda's for 250,000 miles and our old Isuzu truck foir 239,000 miles, but it was because we were young and broke and didn't want a new car payment.

Once my cars and trucks start getting towards the 200,000 mile mark I also get worried about things starting to break

We have tried to put $$ into some of them over the years (ex. replace the transmission, etc.), but I always found that to be a loosing proposition. I wasn't happy with the rebuild, and if big things keep going you will never get your money back out of it.

Might be worth detailing the truck, and selling it off before anything major goes wrong.

Then look for a nice use truck on Craigslist to replace it with.
Maybe something with 100,000 miles if you don't have the budget for something really new.

Once cars and trucks hit the 100,000 mile mark, most have a lot of life out of them still, but the customers selling them think that 100,000 is a ton of miles and will make you a sweet deal.

Truck prices are probably pretty good right now with the high gas prices.

Just my 2 cents worth



.

 

[craig333]

My Jeep may not be all that reliable, but I"d like to see a buick or lexus go where it can

 

[leadsled9]

Should I keep or trade my 1998 F150 with 195,000 miles?


I originally installed my 2008 Hawk on a 2000 Tundra with 190K+ miles on it. This proved to be a real strain on that poor truck. The brakes were not up to the task, and the engine had to rev to redline to get up steep hills. Mileage went from 15 down to 11.....and with any wind or hills the mileage dropped to 7.7 mpg....top speed up hills was 50 mph....grandmothers in Prius's were passing me. The suspension had to have mods to beef it up....changed the rear leafs to 10-leaf packs, added air bags, bigger shocks. The "C" range tires were not up to the task of hauling the camper around. The camper was probably the main reason I burned up the tranny on the Tundra.

Now the Hawk is installed on a 2010 Ford F250. The Hawk is much happier on the 3/4 ton. I know that these campers are designed to be lightweight....but after loading them up with all of your stuff.....it weighs a lot more than you would think. I can hardly tell there is a camper on the new truck....whereas the old truck felt more like an RV than a truck with the Hawk installed. Mileage is 13-14 on the Ford (diesel). The Ford will take even the steepest hills at the posted speed....and pass cars on the way up....lots of power to spare! This truck came from the factory with load range "E" tires.

If you decide to upgrade the truck....go with a 3/4 ton of what ever brand you prefer.

Just my 0.02 worth.

 

[Mark W. Ingalls]

<snip>Now the Hawk is installed on a 2010 Ford F250. The Hawk is much happier on the 3/4 ton. <snip> Mileage is 13-14 on the Ford (diesel). <snip>

As you can see from my avatar photo, lead, I decided to go with a Superduty as well. My average mileage is right around 12.5 with a 5.4 gas engine (hand calculated, and I have verified my odometer reading with GPS).

I only use about a tank of gas per month when we're not camping, but I leave the camper on the truck full time.

Our least trip was a four-tanker, about 1000 miles round trip. I think the gas price averaged out to $2.75. We were three adults, plus gear, plus we occasionally carried two more adults and their gear with us going from place to place. (They have a Casita and a small XUV that gets 16 mpg.) Now if, instead of the gas-hogging Superduty, we had had a vehicle with better mileage how much would we have saved? At 16 mpg vs. 12-1/2 mpg and $2.75 gas, less than $50 for the trip.

Disclaimer 1: I was able to purchase the used vehicle when gas prices went to the moon and big truck prices went to the basement. I could sell it right now for about $4k more. So, that initial savings offsets plenty o' fuel cost.

Disclaimer 2: There was a time when $50 was all the money I had for gas. Back in those days I had a Ford Ranger and a camper shell, but no Hawk.

IMOHO, buying a small truck and then having to reinforce every system except the power train is false economizing. Each, however, to their own...