Should FWC campers be marketed towards Tacomas?

[NVBrian]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hey guys,[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=10.5pt]My old roommate (who has a 4WD Toyota Tacoma) reached out to me regarding buying a truck camper for his rig. Since I've seen a lot of FWCs on Tacos, I did a little bit of research and found that the Swift (935 lbs) and the Fleet (1,045 lbs) are specifically marketed towards the Toyota Tacoma. Just to be sure (I've had a few issues of coming close to GVWR) I asked my buddy to snap a pic of the payload sticker on his driver's side door and found that his Tacoma had a payload of 1,152 lbs (not including driver or passengers). Checking the forums, it seems that ~1,150 lbs payload is pretty typical for a 4WD Taco. Pairing a Tacoma with a Swift or a Fleet would come very close to exceeding the GVWR once you add the driver. Throw in a bunch of gear or an additional passenger and you’re over GVRW.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=10.5pt]My question: Should FWC market the Swift & Fleet towards the Tacoma, even though the buyer will exceed their Tacoma’s payload capacity?[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=10.5pt]Also: I completely understand this is not just an issue with FWC but other TC brands as well.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=10.5pt]I would argue that the Fleet & Swift models should be marketed towards half ton trucks (Tundra/F150/1500). FWC should only market their Project M towards Tacomas to allow for adequate additional payload.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=10.5pt]Thanks.[/SIZE]

 

[longhorn1]

I'm not sure that FWC markets their campers to any specific truck manufacturer. They design their campers to fit a wide range of trucks. Their website shows the campers and which trucks they will fit on. Some campers have to be installed on a platform to clear the truck cab. As an example they have to build a special rear with a notch for some Chevy trucks. Since different truck models have different payloads, the liability is strictly on the buyer. A diesel engine cuts a significant amount off a truck payload. Will a FWC fit on a Taco? Yes. Will the camper exceed the payload? Probably. Unfortunately, many people have a truck, and they buy the camper to go on their truck. Best scenario is to decide on the camper and then pick the truck that will carry the camper so you can be under payload, including full water tanks, equipment, food, people, and pets.

 

[rando]

I am sure this will devolve into the usual GVWR debate.

My take on this is that it is up to the user to determine the impact of their modifications. Adding a camper that will put you over GVWR is not really any different than adding larger tires that decreases braking effectiveness, a lift or roof top tent that increases the likelihood of a roll over, a steel bumper that increases the risk of killing or maiming others....

There is nothing special in a legal (for a non commercial vehicle) or engineering sense about GVWR relative to the vast number of other specifications that accompany a vehicle.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

Thank you Rando,well said.
Frank

 

[frigid north]

I would be really really sad if this size camper wasn't manufactured and marketed for our poor little tacomas.
I love my ATC Bobcat on my 2010 Tacoma. Its been on the truck full time for ten years now.

 

[Sleddog]

Not all Tacomas are made the same. My 2003 4x4 extra cab had a payload of 1630 lbs., that's 115 lbs more than my Tundra that is rated at 1515 lbs.

 

[NVBrian]

Wow did not think that this many people would reply. Appreciate all of your inputs.

I am sure this will devolve into the usual GVWR debate.

My take on this is that it is up to the user to determine the impact of their modifications. Adding a camper that will put you over GVWR is not really any different than adding larger tires that decreases braking effectiveness, a lift or roof top tent that increases the likelihood of a roll over, a steel bumper that increases the risk of killing or maiming others....

There is nothing special in a legal (for a non commercial vehicle) or engineering sense about GVWR relative to the vast number of other specifications that accompany a vehicle.

I agree - the end user is responsible for knowing their GVWR and determining if they're comfortable exceeding that rating.

I'm not sure that FWC markets their campers to any specific truck manufacturer. They design their campers to fit a wide range of trucks. Their website shows the campers and which trucks they will fit on. Some campers have to be installed on a platform to clear the truck cab. As an example they have to build a special rear with a notch for some Chevy trucks. Since different truck models have different payloads, the liability is strictly on the buyer. A diesel engine cuts a significant amount off a truck payload. Will a FWC fit on a Taco? Yes. Will the camper exceed the payload? Probably. Unfortunately, many people have a truck, and they buy the camper to go on their truck. Best scenario is to decide on the camper and then pick the truck that will carry the camper so you can be under payload, including full water tanks, equipment, food, people, and pets.

Great point. People should determine what camper they want and then purchase a vehicle that is adequate to handle it.

If you go on FWC's website and select Campers>Find Based on My Truck> Mid sized Truck (Tacoma, Frontier, Ranger, Colorado, Canyon) you'll end up with the Swift and Fleet whose weight almost exceeds the payload of the truck that you entered in.

I just wanted to point out the fact that these campers are being marketed for a truck that technically can barely handle the camper's weight and see what your guys thoughts were on it.

 

[CoreyTrevor]

I had my Eagle shell on a 2002 Tacoma like Sleddog's. It really needed some suspension upgrades even with just the shell, 2 people and basic camping stuff. The 1600 lb. payload seemed kind of optimistic. I would never have put that much weight on that (great) little truck.

 

[kmcintyre]

I think too that FWC/ATC don't specifically market them to trucks maybe out of concern for liability issues and GVWR as others pointed out. I really doubt you can put any product on a 1/2 ton and be under GVWR. Yes, the upgraded tires, etc. help but weight wise, you'll still be over. If you are even close just with the camper, the weight you don't think about is that "gets you". People, dogs, gear, water, propane, food, chairs, etc., etc.

 

[Marmot-WTW]

Five years in, anyway, I’m comfortable with my Fleet on my Tacoma with improved tires and suspension. You just have to take it easy in your driving style, which comes naturally to me. If you want to drive fast and aggressive with the camper on, this combo is not the one to do it in, if there is any such combo…

 

[57Pan]

Totally agree with Marmot. I’ve had my ATC Bobcat on my 05 Tacoma extended cab for 4 years and it works great.

 

[BlueSky]

Those pesky marketing people.

 

[Scott81621]

Same here. I have a 2018 Fleet on a 2020 Tacoma long bed. Only improvements are air bags and E rated tires. 150,000 miles on the setup so far and no issue or worries!

 

[Zoomad]

Similar issues come up when fitting any camper to a Raptor or Power Wagon that have reduced capacities due to the specialized off road suspensions on them. Does that stop people from putting them on there? Nope. I've personally wheeled with a couple of guys running FWC units in Power Wagons. I'm not sure what adjustments were made to address the added weight, but they sure didn't seem to have any issues.

Here's an example of the manufacturer just flat out avoiding the issue to cover liability. Taken from a 1991 K5 with a FWC Blazer camper. The ironic point is just a mere 14 years earlier GM was selling a MUCH heavier and larger camper on the same K5 platform.

The GVWR and payload numbers are probably set by engineers and then the value is revised by the legal staff to limit liability. I have no way to prove that but my time within GM and the way they behave in the lawsuit happy environment is consistent.

It's not to say to completely disregard the factory ratings, but to understand what they are and adjust accordingly if you add a camper. Getting a weight slip on the truck with and without the camper is very helpful to know where you sit against the numbers.

 

[TacomaAustin]

I've been silent on this topic, but in my case a wonderful base model 2015 Tacoma Access Cab 4x4 equipped with a 2.7 liter four and 5 speed manual was not enough truck in my opinion to pull an ATC Bobcat up serious inclines at highway speeds.

The suspension of the Tacoma which had an add-a-leaf and ride rite air bags was not the issue. The problem was the lack of torque at 2,000 to 2,500'ish rpm range. My solution to having only 4 cylinders was to use 4th gear when at highway speeds and downshift in 3rd on serious inclines to keep the engine rpm at its peak torque range of 3500 rpm. Fuel mileage plummeted.

I am now the proud owner of an elderly 86 year old gentleman's 2005 Toyota Tundra Access Cab with an impressive amount of grunt for its size 4.7 liter V8.

 

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

I had that similar issue with my Bobcat mounted on a Ford Ranger with the smaller V6.
Soulation as per Marty at ATC was look for a nice 1st gen Tundra.
For 11 years now the 2002 AC Cab Tundra has more then fulfilled our needs.

Enjoy your "new" Tundra.
Frank

 

[TacomaAustin]

Drifting back to a mid-sized Tacoma - in the past 5 years, as opposed to a self contained slide-in pop up, a plethora of pop up canopy shells have entered the market that weigh in at less than 500 lbs. Granted that's a dry weight, with no accoutrements or gear. The FWC Project M is one example.

 

[kmcintyre]

People make mistakes unintentionally and should not be judged for that. Most are not technical and when you bring up a topic such as GVWR and how it relates directly to your suspension, cooling, braking package, etc. and the thousands of hours of testing that has taken place, they become disconnected. That's fine.

Me, I'm a technical guy as are most all my close friends. In my opinion it is somewhat irresponsible to run a vehicle full time near, or over, GVWR. Unless engineered otherwise, machines with variability enjoy being operated in the middle of their range. That applies to optical, electrical, mechanical, etc. When I was building my package I estimated I would sit wet around 1,500-2,000 pounds so I ordered a truck with double that GVWR, so my load would sit right in the middle.

I am not here to judge although I have no hesitation in sharing "best practices."

I totally agree. I get why people want to use 1/2 ton trucks; I did it for > 10 years but I had a v8, etc. Always was worried about brakes, etc. and even w/ E rated tires, airbags, etc. that's still a lot of weight.

 

[Yonder37]

Four Wheel Camper tells you up front that anything less than a 3/4-ton truck normally requires suspension work:

"Some trucks will require suspension upgrades. These include all mini trucks and most all 1/2 ton trucks. The rear suspension upgrade can be over load springs, helper springs, or a set of airbags (or any equivalent). Basic “air shocks”are NOT recommended as they are not designed to be used as a rear suspension upgrade. They cannot handle a camper weight and can quickly fail. Your factory representative will advise you in detail regarding the best upgrade for your particular truck."

https://fourwheelcampers.com/truck-preparation-for-pop-up-camper-installation/

I got a quote for a Hawk camper at the factory. Did not have a truck at that time, told them I was considering an F-150. The rep immediately recommended the heavy-duty payload package. This adds heavier springs and D-rated tires, boosting payload to roughly the 2600-3000 pound range, depending on configuration. So I ordered one from Ford. The rep also recommended air bags, so will add those after the truck arrives (which unfortunately may take 6-8 months).

When I visited the factory, I was coming back from vacation in a Tacoma with a Fleet camper that I rented from Outdoorsy. The owner had put it on a Tacoma with airbags but without heavier springs, and it was definitely sagging in the rear. The rep said he saw it in the parking lot and was shaking his head.

 

[Weissenheimer]

Another testament of a 1/4 ton truck doing 1 ton things, lol. I have an 05 Tacoma short bed with a fully loaded Swift. I have been all over the map about the GVWR argument. I chose the hard way and kept the Tacoma/had to do the upgrades. I don't necessarily regret it, my friends with F150s and FWCs still needed to do bags just like me! I just think deep down it would be nice to afford myself the extra power, handling, potential hauling a small trailer with camper ability, etc. I am at 16 months with this setup and would like to make it to 24 before I sell out and go full size. The tacoma is doing great however I have been through several upgrades to get it to where i felt good. Like I said I don't necessarily regret it. It was just a lot of work!! The short bed has all of physics against it (talking about where the weight sits on this chasis, see stats below):

Suspension:
Front suspension remained stock springs and bilstein 5100s
Setup 1: C range K02s. Installed bags on top of the stock springs plus (add a leaf the truck came with)
Setup 2: Installed Dobinsons 112 extra HD leafs with bags, handles like a dream loaded. Nightmare unloaded
Setup 3: Removed a leaf and kept the bags, happy medium loaded or unloaded.
Setup 4: Needed tires and went with Toyo ATIII E range (lightest/most compliant E range from my research and proved true). Perfect for a 1/4 ton not-so-heavy truck. My truck came with E range K02s and I didn't realize how much the truck struggled with those until I got the Cs. Between K02 Cs and Toyo Es my MPGs and overall truck feel is the same!

Brakes:
This probably wouldn't be an issue with most other 1/4 trucks. Related to the early year 2nd gens, the brakes are BAD. Replaced everything since i was due anyway, STILL bad. I ended up doing a mod I never would have thought of before, retrofit a 2010 Tundra brake booster. Now I have the bite (and peace of mind) I was looking for.

Power:
Leaves something to be desired but It works. But I do find myself helping her out a bit and selecting gears. I try to be careful with overdrive and lugging it too much. Wish I had a tow haul mode because I think that would make a world of a difference. I really think the power numbers are sufficient, I am just held back by transmission tuning.

Stats:
Empty truck Curb weight= 4640
Front axle= 2520
Rear axle=2120

Loaded with FWC and gear curb weight= 6220
Front axle=2460
Rear axle=3760

-Note, the short bed issues! Loaded with the camper, weight is REMOVED from the front axle, not ideal. This means a majority of the load is cantilevered off the rear half of the bed. Which may or may not be a surprise.
-Note, the 1/4 ton issues! I am over my rear axle rating by 650 and GVWR 770

So yeah, it works, and despite all the content online I have not seen any catastrophic reports of failure with these particular setups. I am going to keep running it for now anyway. Will post pics later