The Steens, rattlesnakes and points North

[Smokecreek1]

Well, I just got back from a somewhat different and interesting trip North-to Oregon and Washington. First off, the world has discovered the Steens!! Most of the campsites on the north loop were filled not with old trekkers and fisher persons like me, but with families with kids and old folks pulling trailers! Seems like the $4.00/8.00 camping fees, garbage collection and the great environment has won out over more expensive places closer to home! So I set up my camp and was enjoying my first vodka and my border collieX "Bob" alerts and charges something in the grass-yep it was a rattler and it bit him right above the eye, the side of his head was paralized before he got the 10 feet back to where i was sitting. His head was pretty swelled up so I started putting ice packs on his head. Years ago I had another dog that was snake bit but not injected and after a few days of being sick he was Okay-but "Bob" had been injected and i get ready for a long wait! A few minutes later some kids came by (they had been playing with Bob a little while before) and I called them over to show them the dead snake and bob and one of the kids says "my dad is a doctor and I'll go get him"-he comes over (camped next store to me) and he is a former ER Dr. tha now practices homopathic medicine-they treat the cause (poison) not the seen result (swelling) by stimulating the bodies natural immune system [as i later learned]. He says he never treated a snake bit dog before but it can't hurt him so he mixes up two cups of stuff and we start to spoon feed "Bob" every 5 minutes, then 10 minutes until he gets the each potion one every other hour-within 10 minutes bob wants to play-looks like hell but he is feeling better-I treat him all night and the next day (all the swelling is gone and the poison is in his crawl and by day three we start to wean him of the drugs-Can you believe this in the middle of nowhere a dr and an a cure-anyway the dog is well and the Dr. sent me a copy of a paper he is writing for the "Homopathic Weekly" I sent him some photos to include with the article-I'll pass it on if there is any interest-but I'm converted or at least want to read more about this type of medicine! I'm going to try to attach photos so hopefully this works! Still trying, so lets finish up the trip-Lots of fish up at the Owyhees, but real dry-didn't even try and camp-and the trip up to the state parks was to scary to drive-must be getting old-camp at Chucker Park both going and coming-thanks for telling me about this place-real nice and handy-stopped also again for a nite at Dixie fs CG on HW 7 between Baker City and John Day-its a dry camp but nice and off by itself! Rest of the trip was okay-will keep trying to post the photos-thought i had them sized to fit-but it doesn't work-computers

 

[Desert Rancher]

Any idea what the medicine was?

 

[brett13]

Homeopathy is nonsense! Bob didn't have poison injected (or a full dose of it anyway) and recoverd on his own with the help of fluids, ice and rest. Homeopathy mixes an infinitesmal amount of the poison (or virus or bacteria or allergen) and then dilutes it to the point it is equal to about 1 molecule's worth. That potion is given to the patient and does....nothing! How could it do anything, there's nothing in it but water! It's a scam with no basis in science whatsoever.

From wikipedia:
"systematic reviews of published trials fail to demonstrate efficacy. Furthermore, higher quality trials tend to report results that are less positive, and most positive studies have not been replicated or show methodological problems that prevent them from being considered unambiguous evidence of homeopathy's efficacy.

Depending on the dilution, homeopathic remedies may not contain any pharmacologically active molecules, and for such remedies to have pharmacological effect would violate fundamental principles of science."

I'm making a big deal of this because it puts people (and animals) in danger. Pretend medicine will cause patients to suffer more and perhaps more severely.

 

[Smokecreek1]

Any idea what the medicine was?


They were called Lachesis and Cedron-one was made from the Bushmaster snake from S. America and the other some type of snake cure-unless the stuff comes pre made, in some way I'd be afraid to use it without any training. Went down to the natural food store and they didn't have any of the stuff, and were checking it out-have not heard from them. Check it out-all I known is it seemed to work and its time to discuss this with brett 3!

 

[Smokecreek1]

Homeopathy is nonsense! Bob didn't have poison injected (or a full dose of it anyway) and recoverd on his own with the help of fluids, ice and rest. Homeopathy mixes an infinitesmal amount of the poison (or virus or bacteria or allergen) and then dilutes it to the point it is equal to about 1 molecule's worth. That potion is given to the patient and does....nothing! How could it do anything, there's nothing in it but water! It's a scam with no basis in science whatsoever.

From wikipedia:
"systematic reviews of published trials fail to demonstrate efficacy. Furthermore, higher quality trials tend to report results that are less positive, and most positive studies have not been replicated or show methodological problems that prevent them from being considered unambiguous evidence of homeopathy's efficacy.

Depending on the dilution, homeopathic remedies may not contain any pharmacologically active molecules, and for such remedies to have pharmacological effect would violate fundamental principles of science."

I'm making a big deal of this because it puts people (and animals) in danger. Pretend medicine will cause patients to suffer more and perhaps more severely.

 

[Smokecreek1]

Okay Bret 3, you could be right-I'm no medic but I have reported what I saw-a liquid (the poison) was running out of the fang marks in my dogs head-unlike the last time. My dog was sick, slobbering all over, and swelling up mighty fast but he was breathing which was my main worry and it seemed that the stuff-what ever it was-worked almost instantly within the first half-an-hour of its use. My dog seemed to react to the meds (Cedron and Lachesis) on the spot! Supposedly what ever he gave the dog stimulated his own immune system to fight off the poison. This whole event was different from the last time i had a dog that was snake bit and snakes don't always inject when they strike. Whether this stuff worked or my dogs system fought the poison off on its own with out help is beside the point-my dog is alive and was happy to have someone give me some help! I know that as of right now, I'm not trained in using, much less understanding homopathic medicine and whether it works or not-this is way above my army, BLM and Boy scout medical training and field craft and yes, i know that dogs can and usually, depending on where bitten and much poison was injected, can survive a snake bite. All i know is what i saw and witch doctors, old wife's tales and chants aside, a saw something different and I'm taking a look at it. I've spent much of my life in the field and I have had the great luck of never having been bitten by a rattle snake or cobra or what ever and if this is something that I can add to my field knowledge or kit I'd be a fool not to check it out! I'll send you a copy of the published report if you want!

 

[Desert Rancher]

Thanks, Smokecreek. I'll look into it later.

Sure glad your little guy came through it OK! Scary...

Hey Barko, you ever experienced anything like that??

Jeff

 

[MarkBC]

Wow -- what a story!

Glad your dog recovered well.

I wonder if dogs are too far from their wild origins to instinctively know that rattlesnakes bite? (...or that porcupines stab with long needles and skunks spray bad stuff, for that matter -- apparently a lot of dogs don't know about those critters, either)
Of course, I wouldn't know to be wary of those creatures if I hadn't been told. I'm glad that we humans can learn danger without direct experience of it.

 

[Smokecreek1]

Wow -- what a story!

Glad your dog recovered well.

I wonder if dogs are too far from their wild origins to instinctively know that rattlesnakes bite? (...or that porcupines stab with long needles and skunks spray bad stuff, for that matter -- apparently a lot of dogs don't know about those critters, either)
Of course, I wouldn't know to be wary of those creatures if I hadn't been told. I'm glad that we humans can learn danger without direct experience of it.

So am I! You know, I think its the Dog and breed, some are smart and some never learn. My "Bob" was alerting to something in his jeans-like something out there that could attack my pack and BC are pretty smart, so he protected-now is when I find out how smart really he is-will he avoid them, keep getting bit or learn to kill them. My old snake bit dog ( husky/german shep) avoided snake holes and snakes after his one bite. I know its the same with porcupines and especially skunks some dogs learn some don't. My old dog was a stray like "Bob" was and lived out in the woods and learned-sure hope bob follows that pattern and keeps on learning!

 

[Silvertip47]

Whether your dog didn't get much venom, healed on his own or the mysterious potion worked I am happy he is OK.

We have a little Boston and I keep her leashed in snake country. One small hit would be enough to kill her. Scary!!!

 

[brett13]

interesting trip North-to Oregon and Washington. First off, the world has discovered the Steens!! Most of the campsites on the north loop were filled not with old trekkers and fisher persons like me, but with families with kids and old folks pulling trailers! Seems like the $4.00/8.00 camping fees, garbage collection and the great environment has won out over more expensive places closer to home! So I set up my camp and was enjoying my first vodka and my border collieX "Bob" alerts and charges something in the grass-yep it was a rattler and it bit him right above the eye, the side of his head was paralized before he got the 10 feet back to where i was sitting. His head was pretty swelled up so I started putting ice packs on his head. Years ago I had another dog that was snake bit but not injected and after a few days of being sick he was Okay-but "Bob" had been injected and i get ready for a long wait! A few minutes later some kids came by (they had been playing with Bob a little while before) and I called them over to show them the dead snake and bob and one of the kids says "my dad is a doctor and I'll go get him"-he comes over (camped next store to me) and he is a former ER Dr. tha now practices homopathic medicine-they treat the cause (poison) not the seen result (swelling) by stimulating the bodies natural immune system [as i later learned]. He says he never treated a snake bit dog before but it can't hurt him so he mixes up two cups of stuff and we start to spoon feed "Bob" every 5 minutes, then 10 minutes until he gets the each potion one every other hour-within 10 minutes bob wants to play-looks like hell but he is feeling better-I treat him all night and the next day (all the swelling is gone and the poison is in his crawl and by day three we start to wean him of the drugs-Can you believe this in the middle of nowhere a dr and an a cure-anyway the dog is well and the Dr. sent me a copy of a paper he is writing for the "Homopathic Weekly" I sent him some photos to include with the article-I'll pass it on if there is any interest-but I'm converted or at least want to read more about this type of medicine! I'm going to try to attach photos so hopefully this works! Still trying, so lets finish up the trip-Lots of fish up at the Owyhees, but real dry-didn't even try and camp-and the trip up to the state parks was to scary to drive-must be getting old-camp at Chucker Park both going and coming-thanks for telling me about this place-real nice and handy-stopped also again for a nite at Dixie fs CG on HW 7 between Baker City and John Day-its a dry camp but nice and off by itself! Rest of the trip was okay-will keep trying to post the photos-thought i had them sized to fit-but it doesn't work-computers

I re-read your origal post. Let me be a little more clear. First, you didn't mention any specific drugs and used the word "drug" generically along with "now practices homeopathy" so I assumed he could have given Bob anything and not necessarily a real medicine. Second, Cedron is a plant seed which supposedly has an anti-venom property. I used some Google-fu and found a reference to it in an 1886 Scientific American. I have no idea if there is any good science behind it, but there is at least a reference to it. Third, Lachesis seems to be a real antivenom (see clinical trial here). So, it appears this homeopathy doctor used a real anti-venom, which is very lucky for you and great for Bob.

However, using a real drug (we don't know if it was used legally either), is NOT homeopathy. Your doctor was actually practicing real, scientific medicine by administering this drug, even though he claims to "practice homeopathy". That's good for you/Bob, because if it were homeopathy, the magical water potion would not have done anthing. And relying on fake medicine (homeopathy) instead of seeking bona-fide medical help in an emergency is potentially deadly. And that last, bolded, sentence is my only point. I'm very happy it worked out for you and Bob!

 

[Smokecreek1]

I re-read your origal post. Let me be a little more clear. First, you didn't mention any specific drugs and used the word "drug" generically along with "now practices homeopathy" so I assumed he could have given Bob anything and not necessarily a real medicine. Second, Cedron is a plant seed which supposedly has an anti-venom property. I used some Google-fu and found a reference to it in an 1886 Scientific American. I have no idea if there is any good science behind it, but there is at least a reference to it. Third, Lachesis seems to be a real antivenom (see clinical trial here). So, it appears this homeopathy doctor used a real anti-venom, which is very lucky for you and great for Bob.

However, using a real drug (we don't know if it was used legally either), is NOT homeopathy. Your doctor was actually practicing real, scientific medicine by administering this drug, even though he claims to "practice homeopathy". That's good for you/Bob, because if it were homeopathy, the magical water potion would not have done anthing. And relying on fake medicine (homeopathy) instead of seeking bona-fide medical help in an emergency is potentially deadly. And that last, bolded, sentence is my only point. I'm very happy it worked out for you and Bob!


Sounds good to Me!

 

[clikrf8]

I am so glad that Bob is okay. Whether it was his own strong immune system or the homeopathic mixture is anyone's guess. I tried homeopathy a few years back: helped me lose weight and regulated my cycle. It may have been placebo or not.

I am very careful around where I know there may be rattlesnakes as we don't have them on the wet side of Washington state. I almost got out of the truck on our last trip to Eastern WA last week when we stopped for a photo op along the Columbia River on Colville Indian Reservation past Omak Lake. Hubby parked on some long golden grass on a dirt road and I started to get out and saw a small rattler (they bite just as bad) as I was about to step down. I will be more cautious next time.

Next trip to rattler country will see me wearing rattlesnake chaps. Have any of you tried these?

Thanks for the report about Steens Mts. It is on our list.