This is what happens when technology goes wrong

Casa Escarlata Robles Too

C'est la vie
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monterey bay area
These photos are of the Moss Landing Vistra co battery storage facility.
This fire started about 3:30 pm yestreday.This is the worlds largest storage facility.
It's housed in the old PG&E turbine building .The original power plant was shut
down many years ago and dismantled but the turbine building was left for future use.
The facility building has thousands of Lithium-ion batteries.
They can't be but out and just have to burn out.
Probably looking at many weeks.There has been a small evacuation area around the Moss Landing area
About 1200 people..
So far no toxic fumes.We live about 5 miles from the area.Very light winds.
Frank
 
IMG_2111.jpegIMG_2112.jpegIMG_2113.jpeg
 
Good grief -- did no one think about the fire hazard? Oh, I forgot, it may have cost a bit more to spread the batteries out and the stockholders would not stand for that!
 
So, will this bring the same toxic fallout that the LA fires have done? (And I'm not talking about physical toxicity ... :cautious:) I'm sure plenty of finger pointing and accusations will follow the battery fire as well.
 
I did a bit of digging, and the plant uses LG lithium batteries, but I can't find out which chemical formulation of lithium they are using. One spec sheet says "proprietary". It also says that the cells are fireproof, but the plastic housing of the batteries is not. My understanding is that LiFePo4 batteries are not a fire hazard.

 
There have been measurements of the smoke.
Word is no real problem,YET.
The wind is very low so all the smoke is rising straight up and dissipating.
But there are some folks who have said they have some effects from the smoke.
The evacuation order was lifted last evening for the Moss Landing area.
The road hwy 1 is still closed in the area just in front of the plant.
On the news last night a photo of the battery stacks was shown.
There are many small units in each stack.
As of thin morning there haven't been any more flare ups.
The concrete building is mostly destroyed.
Fortunately there are no injuries.
We may be close but the smoke plume isn't headed our way.
This is only one of several buildings with batteries,but it hasn't spread from
the original structure.
As far as the cells being fire proof? There is a cooling system but that failed.
It will be interesting to read the report when it comes out. The major concern
was HF (hydrofloric) acid gas created from the burning of the batteries,but from the tests
they say that hasn't been found
Frank
 
Good grief -- did no one think about the fire hazard? Oh, I forgot, it may have cost a bit more to spread the batteries out and the stockholders would not stand for that!
There's no real way to put these fires out.They say water can't be used.
Maybe foam but our small fire co wouldn't even start to have enough.
And with 2 airports within 25 miles that wasn't even an option.
Don't know if foam would help.My Navy experience with foam aboard the
ship wasn't with batteries burning.
The Vistra co sure didn't have any fire protection except for the cooling systems.
Which failed this time.
Frank
 
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In my experience in decades of hazardous site cleanup, the companies and corporations purveying these devices and materials are always straining at the leash of regulation. People learned a long time ago how to minimize the chance of catastrophic events such as this fire, but the cry is always "It costs too much!" and then they throw lawyers, lobbyists and, if they can afford them, politicians, at the problem. Would have been cheaper to properly manage the materials in the first place -- cleanup, and replacing inventory, is likely to be very costly. I cannot recall a single instance of someone losing their job over unsafe management of hazardous materials. I am sure it has happened, but not to my knowledge.
 
I can only assume that the fire started outside of an actual battery, since LiFePo4 batteries are super safe. The currents available are not safe, and can easily spark fires. As for putting it out, when I worked at a Telco which had very large battery backups, we had Halon fire suppression systems. No oxygen, no fire (bad for employees too) :geek: I'm leaning towards the interpretation of "its not a battery fire... its a fire at a power station that uses non-flammable batteries". And another note, these batteries do not sound like they use the same chemistry as Tesla/auto batteries which ARE flammable.
 
When I was taking fire science classes we visited a facility that had a halon suppression system. When the alarm when off you had only like fifteen seconds to evacuate before it fired.

My guess would be toxic runoff being the primary consideration here. Foam can be had in large quantities even for a small department.

I just saw a 2.5 gallon fire extinguisher advertised for Lithium fire use. They wanted $1200 bucks. Guess I won't be adding that to my fire extinguisher collection.
 
I can only assume that the fire started outside of an actual battery, since LiFePo4 batteries are super safe. The currents available are not safe, and can easily spark fires. As for putting it out, when I worked at a Telco which had very large battery backups, we had Halon fire suppression systems. No oxygen, no fire (bad for employees too) :geek: I'm leaning towards the interpretation of "its not a battery fire... its a fire at a power station that uses non-flammable batteries". And another note, these batteries do not sound like they use the same chemistry as Tesla/auto batteries which ARE flammable.
Vic thanks for your incite.
There's not much info coming out of the Vistra people about their batteries.
I also thought about the Halon system ,but I am not very familiar with it.
IMO when all this shakes out the Vistra co will have some real thinking about their safety with these storage areas.
This is the 3rd fire at the plant but with the first 2 their safety system helped before it
got to the point of this current fire.
There hasn't been info yet about the starting point of the fire.I'll keep following this.
Frank
 
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The lithium-ion batteries in these types of fire events are not the LiFePO4 batteries we are using in our campers. The mention of hydroflouric acid as a concern means they were lithium-ion batteries that used LiPF6 as an electrolyte, and that electrolyte, when evaporated by a runaway thermal event in a cell, is flammable. Once the reaction is started and the temperature gets high enough, the electrolyte compounds can react with water.

Again, as Vic said, our LiFePO4 batteries are quite safe and very unlikely to cause an internal or venting fire even with short circuits, overcharging, or mechanical damage including cell piercing. They can add fuel to an external fire once they get hot enough, though, but that would be very late in the process of a camper fire if one occurred.
 
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The lithium-ion batteries in these types of fire events are not the LiFePO4 batteries we are using in our campers. The mention of hydroflouric acid as a concern means they were lithium-ion batteries that used LiPF6 as an electrolyte, and that electrolyte, when evaporated by a runaway thermal event in a cell, is flammable. Once the reaction is started and the temperature gets high enough, the electrolyte compounds can react with water.

Again, as Vic said, our LiFePO4 batteries are quite safe and very unlikely to cause an internal or venting fire even with short circuits, overcharging, or mechanical damage including cell piercing. They can add fuel to an external fire once they get hot enough, though, but that would be very late in the process of a camper fire if one occurred.
Thanks JR.One other issue with this battery fire is that the batteries are located inside a concrete building so any hear build up doesn't get dissipated and then can lead to
a runaway thermal event.
Haven't heard much lately about the fire.It is out and cleanup should be starting.
EPA has been testing soil/water/air. So far no real issues.
Frank
 
I must say that I find this a great idea. Not sure of the cost but I bet you a dime to a dollar it is a heck of a lot cheaper than the insurance costs for replacement and especially the cultural loss. I used to live in Japan and loved their remarkable disaster planning. They have a lot of potential disasters with quakes, tsunami, fire, typhoon etc. A very organized culture.
Check this system out!
 
My 200ah LiFePO4 battery I bought in 2021 from bigbattery.com has a stainless steel case, and inside the case is a module about the size of three AA batteries that is designed to burst and fill the voids in the case with foam fire insulation if the battery is subjected to external fire and the temperature reaches some threshold. The idea is to delay the battery contributing fuel to an external fire.

It may have been a marketing thing more than anything else, but apparently such devices are cheap and it’s a fire safety enhancement to at least some extent.

Unfortunately that company is only making larger batteries these days. I really like the stainless case, the on/off switch, voltage display, and SB175 connection it has.
 
It will be interesting when we find out what and how the fire started.
The battery stacks have a fire suppressant system built in but it
didn't work. This same co had 2 other minor fires in the past 3 years.
he PG&E co also has 1 storage unit on the same site but they use
the Tesla battery which also had a very minor heat issue in the past 3 years.
If we are going to depend on this technology for the future some serious
safety plans need to be setup.
This area where the storage facility located is next to the 2nd largest wetland in the state.
It's also part of the Monterey Bay National Sanctuary.
Makes you ask how did this plant get approved next to such a critical area.
Frank
 

From Wildfire Today: Wildfire Today

EPA begins ‘largest wildfire hazardous material removal’ in agency history

...

EPA said its first priority is removing lithium-ion batteries in the area affected by the wildfire and properly disposing of them. Many homes in the burned areas had energy storage systems and/or electric hybrid vehicles, and the agency has reportedly removed 80 of them burned or destroyed in the fire.

“Residents returning home are encouraged to exercise extreme caution and can call our hotline at 1-833-798-7372 if they encounter a lithium-ion battery while re-entering their property and/or are unsure if a lithium-ion battery was damaged,” the EPA said.
 

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