Truck Worries, Woes and Considerations

[Wandering Sagebrush]

A few weeks ago, I hijacked a thread to offer my opinion why the new owners of XP (now Nimble) are going to a gas engine instead of diesel. Here’s that post

“After putting 3 turbo chargers, an EGR cooler, MAP sensor, and now a turbo down pipe in my truck, I think I understand the reasoning behind a gas rig.

To be honest, I love my 6.7, but I want it to work correctly. The first replacement turbo failed after several hundred miles. I get that stuff happens. The second turbo, according to the service manager was bad (extremely noisy )from the box and I didn’t get to drive it. The third turbo was also noisy at startup, but quieted when warmed up. I put 1100 miles on it per a request from Ford, then took it back in. I suspected an exhaust leak because of the behavior of the problem, plus a slight diesel exhaust smell on occasions. My guess is the original down pipe was damaged in all the wrenching. FWIW, the truck runs great, good power, good mileage, just the initial turbo/exhaust howl and smell.

i hope the down pipe is the fix, but as much as I love the truck... it will probably be my last diesel. I’ll go slower on the hills, and I’ll save $10,500 at the start if I replace it.”

The down pipe was not the fix. The dealer put a fourth turbo on the truck, plus various exhaust components from a similar used truck on their sales lot, all to no avail.

Monday (4/27), I talked with their service advisor to find out what their plan was, or whether or not I should consider taking the truck to another shop to have a fresh set of eyes put on the issue. They put their heads together, and it appears they finally got Ford’s attention and assistance.

This morning, the service advisor called and told me that Ford had relented and authorized installation of a factory new turbo charger instead of the previous four remanufactured units.

I’m not sure when the factory new turbo will be received. I’m hopeful, but not confident this will fix it, but it seems like progress. The issue has been dragging on since October of last year.

For me, there are some lessons learned. I’m out of pocket about $6,400, and have not been confident in my truck. I tend to keep my vehicles at least 10 years, well past the normal warranty period. Given the complexity of new vehicles, an extended warranty that is at least 10 years on anything new. Right now, I would be roughly $2,000 ahead if I bought an extended warranty on this truck. Another lesson that I previously mentioned is the new vehicle will probably be gas.

That’s my tale of woe (up to this point). Hopefully not everyone will have a similar experience, but I thought I’d toss this out for your consideration.

 

[WjColdWater]

Sage, sorry to hear your vehicle troubles. I don’t know much about diesel motors other than fuel difference and they can pull anything. Since 2010 I have purchased three Ford F-150’s /2010-5.4/2017-3.5 and my current and last 2020-5.0. The 5.4 was a puller but tough on gas but a great truck. The 2017 with the 3.5 eco 10 speed excellent power, mileage and overall one of the best trucks I’ve ever owned. The 2020 with the 5.0-HDP-10 speed is yet to be determined only 1K with 700 miles with a Grandby and 4000 lb boat. So far so good, to early to give a performance/ mileage report. Good luck on getting to the bottom of the issue and ending the pain.
Wayne

 

[dorocks]

Back a few years ago a friend of mine in the auto business warned me about modern diesels. First it was the smog problems. Then complexity as you mentioned. Then the lessening of sulfur in diesel fuels. So I bought a 2005 Ram 2500. It has been a decent truck. Been adding an additive to increase lubricity, since low-sulfur diesel decreases injector cleansing. I have wanted to update the truck, since it is getting old looking and terrible door seals. My friend still warns me about them - Ford Chevy or Ram. To top it off I went on our local Ram dealer's site to see the price (yikes) of trucks and found they had none available. Called my long time salesman friend there and he said FCA stopped selling the 2020 tracks " to replace the transmission valve body separator" that could lead to a leak and fire. Sad that modern vehicles are problems from the git-go.

I am sticking with my old fart truck for now. Not sure what the future holds when it dies.

 

[Wango]

i have three super dutys. One is my old work/camper rig, mostly just a "valley car" in oregon. 2003 F250 with a 5.4. Has been great vehicle overall.
Current work truck is an 2016 F350 dually plat. Got on a deal from a friend, great truck, plush but constantly worry about all of the headaches that come from modern diesels.
My personal/camper truck is a 2016 F350 that has been modified a great deal. While i admit to being a bit of a redneck, i don't drive like a maniac and roll coal on people. i need this setup to last at least 5 more years. So far so good, shocks are a pain, but it is kind of heavy.

Looking down the road at my next/dream camper setup, i am pretty sure these two diesels will be my last. The modern engines are just too complicated and in my opinion handicapped to justify what i use them for. i have been reading/watching alot of the stuff on the new 7.3 gas engine, supercharging might be a way to go if i need the extra power.
Think i will stay with the Fords though, have family that works there, my buddy has a fleet of ram trucks, another drives chevy, all are about the same.
Engine alone has me thinking of buying an older pre def cummins and building an old truck, but reliability is a concern.
Makes me wonder if it is worth trying to build my own expo rig. That and articulating beds, yeah those are another headache altogether. w

 

[klahanie]

I'm leaning toward gas for next truck (if there is one). Prob Ford with the 7.3L. I think power will be fine. Only downside I see is the fuel economy, which creates three concerns for me. I figure for us: diesel would be about 40% better, reduced fuel range meaning jerry cans likely, and consumption would be around 10mpg - not sure if I could stomach that in this day and age.

For us, wanting to do longish road trips and sometimes remote, reliability and confidence in the truck is paramount. We had a truck before that eventually got old and started to have issues - that was enough for me to terminate our outings until the vehicle was replaced. This one will get old too (10-15 years was my target range) or it might develop issues. It's been good but we've had the dpf expire and the pcm fail, both times far from home. Last time we stopped for a number of years, next time I might not be so willing.

I look at it this way: you have to guess at how long your window of opportunity to do something might last and whether you have what you need to take advantage of it. We only get a few kicks at the cat.

 

[ckent323]

I had a long conversation with my local diesel mechanic. He primarily services fleet vehicles but also individual vehicles like mine (1993 Dodge W250 with 12 valve Cummins).

He said he has seen a lot of reliability problems in the the newer diesel pickups as well as in the newer fleet vehicles. He compared the problems with the newer model diesel vehicles and their new emissions equipment to the addition of emission equipment to gas engines in the 1980's. A lot of those 1980's engines were very unreliable.

I am sure the issues will ultimately be worked out but as with the gas engines it will probably take a couple of generations of emission equipment improvements.

The mechanic said that diesel trucks in California up to about 2007 are good. After that is when he thinks the major reliability issues begin.


Part of my decision to keep my 1993 and refurbish it was the result of reading a lot of reviews on the 2007 and newer trucks and their reliability issues. So far I am happy with my decision and I think far ahead dollar wise. At 400,000 miles and counting my 1993 Dodge remains the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. A lot of folks think the 1991 - 1993 Dodges were the most reliable. Some folks think the 1994 - 1998 model years were just as reliable with a more comfortable ride and a quieter interior. I am not as familiar with Ford and Chevy diesel pickups.

P.S. We did an 8,000 mile round trip drive to Anchorage and back in that 1993 Dodge W250 during late summer and fall of 2018 towing a 16 foot enclosed trailer weighing around 5500 pounds with two railroad track inspection cars in it. I would be comfortable doing that trip again with my truck.

 

[Vic Harder]

I can't help but smile at the different tone of this thread compared to this one - https://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/topic/7772-a-milestone/

 

[JHanson]

One of the biggest problems with the 6.7 is that addressing any issue beyond the extremely basic requires removing the engine. That automatically quadruples a repair bill. I'm not sure about the equivalent Chevy and Ram engines.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Jon, per my friend the retired Ford Service Manager, the cab comes off in about 2 hours, which still ain’t great, but quite that expensive. .

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The people at the Long Long Honeymoon YouTube channel had their diesel truck "bulletproofed" and documented the whole thing. They show the cab lifting rig at around 5:00 minutes into this video:

It was quite interesting to watch.

 

[smlobx]

I’ve had a variety of Diesel engines since the early 90’s and have to agree with the consensus here.
Fortunately my construction equipment was exempt from the emissions requirement (CAT) but the newer trucks with the downstream emissions equipment has been pretty problematic.

I had a 2006 F-350 (Pre-emission) that I had bulletproofed like the video above and once that was done it was a great truck. The only reason I sold it and bought a virtually identical one with the 6.7L was that the new trucks were much quieter and my wife liked that. Plus like many we tend to keep our vehicles for 10 or more years and the 6.0 already had almost 200K on her. The 6.7 is also much more powerful.

 

[camelracer]

After watching that video I'm going out to give my 5.9 Cummins a big hug. My only problem with diesel is the price of fuel compared to gas.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

Between all the problems their diesels had, plus the spark plug issues their gas engines had for nearly a decade, I don't trust ANY new Ford engine. I'm running an F250 with the 6.2 gas engine, but I only bought it AFTER it had been out for a few years and was known not to have any outstanding problems.

I see all the excitement about Ford's new 7.3 gas engine and I just shake my head. Who wants to pay big money for the privilege of being a beta tester of a new design?

 

[Foy]

After watching that video I'm going out to give my 5.9 Cummins a big hug. My only problem with diesel is the price of fuel compared to gas.

Feeling much the same about my 2002 7.3 F350 diesel. She's getting lots of TLC this Spring in preparation for a 6,000 mile road trip in August, situations permitting, and I think she'll take miles 280,000 through 286,000 in stride. Although I've been extremely happy with this truck for a long time (and, tomorrow, May 2 is the 16th anniversary of the purchase), for the many reasons stated above, I doubt I'll ever purchase a post-DEF diesel pickup. Hoping Mr.Sagebrush's situation gets resolved long-term soon.

Foy

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

I picked up up the truck this afternoon, and with fingers crossed and prayers said... Big Ruby seems to be running correctly, and with no weird turbo howl. I’m still worried, but the fifth turbo (factory new, not a remanufactured turbo) seems to have done the job.

For anyone with a 6.7L Ford, if you have a turbo failure, insist on a new replacement part.

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

The latest chapter in worries and woes. I needed to run an errand in a nearby small town, so fired up Big Ruby and did a roundabout route to the destination. At about 30 miles since getting the truck back, she threw another check engine light, and went into protective reduced power mode, with extraordinarily rough idle.

This morning, I fired the beast up to move it out to the street in case I needed a tow truck. Surprisingly, the old girl ran smoothly with the check light still on, so off we went to the dealer. They scanned the code, and there was a TSB on it saying the Engine Control Module required calibration. The cal was done, and we are home without incident.

I am thinking about a couple of belts of sipping whiskey for courage enhancement, then trying for that errand again. Fingers crossed...

 

[Rdy2Roam]

i bought a 2006 ram 3500 with the 5.9 turbo diesel and love it.(114.000 mi) the guy i bought it off of said his son was a engineer who worked on developing the cumming engine and told him if he was going to buy one he should by it now and that was 2006. he said the next year there going to start adding all the emission crap and there going to have all kinds of problems..

 

[ntsqd]

I deliberately bought a mechanical diesel. Partly because it was the cut-off year, next year models need to be KA emissions checked. I wouldn't mind the check if the State wasn't so autocratic about the whole thing and charging exorbitantly for the experience. And also because those just work, and have been doing so for decades.

I know that in doing so I give up both power and economy, but 17.3 for the 458 miles that we drove last Saturday without the camper and 16.8 for the 458 miles that we drove last Sunday without the camper, but with a car on a U-Haul trailer is nothing to sneeze at. And I never felt like I didn't have enough power for the grades on 395. We've pulled better than that out of it with the old, smaller camper in place (~19 avg.), but that's not a fun way to drive.

 

[Zoomad]

I see enough diesel emissions related repairs of all of the big three in our shop that solidifies my choice to stick with gas. The complexity is far to much to deal with right now. Yes, given a few more years they might come up with the technology to get the lowered emissions without band-aids like diesel exhaust fluid and diesel exhaust filters and EGR systems. Heck if somebody told me 20 years ago we'd be working on trucks that had that equipment I would have thought you were joking like saying get me some muffler bearings or blinker fluid.

Nope the truth is stranger than fiction.

The reality is the main penalty of going with a gas engine is the fuel economy I'm ok with that. Compared to the crappy economy of emission laden diesels now that gap is closing up anyway. The maintenance is going to be cheaper with a gas engine. The gas engine reliability is far better right now with the lack of that extra complexity so the possibility of a emissions related repair out of warranty on a gas engine that would cost you thousands of dollars is far lower than any modern diesel out there.

There is no denying if you are running a heavy combo of truck plus camper plus a trailer full of other gear you just need to stick with a diesel. But if you aren't bringing a trailer along, keep it somewhat light a gasser 3/4 ton or heavy 1/2 ton with the right gas engine can do the job and save you money in big emissions related repair bills later and high maintenance costs. That savings can go right in the fuel tank for your adventures.

Gas engines have only 3 main emissions related systems now on most trucks. All required by federal mandate. Catalytic converters, Evaporative emissions systems (think fuel vapor off of the tank itself) and Positive Crankcase ventilation system. It's not to say none of those systems can't fail either, but outside of the catalytic converter failing most repair costs will be well under the costs of replacing anything in a diesel's exhaust aftertreatment system or EGR system.

 

[Vic Harder]

I agree on the maintenance costs; however, I went with an older diesel this time for range per tank reasons, not just fuel economy. Yes, my diesel gets almost 2x the mpg that my gas truck did. That wasn't enough. I can buy a 62gal diesel tank to replace my existing tank, and get waaay more distance between fills. If that option had existed for my gasser, I would never have switched.