What is the best way to keep your water lines and pump safe in cold temps? I am the new owner of a 2014 Hawk and want to make sure to avoid any burst lines or damage to my water pump when the camper is in the driveway overnight in the spring here in Montana (no water heater). Researching this it looks like a lot of folks drain the tank and leave the faucet and cabinet doors open when it gets cold. This is easy enough, but wouldn't fully drain the pump correct? This temporary winterization should be ok if its not terribly cold overnight, 25 degrees F ish? but what if it gets down in the teens? Should I leave the heater on for a while to warm it up before bed? Install additional insulation inside the cabinets or surrounding the pump? Any input is much appreciated - noob trying to avoid rookie mistakes!
Water lines and pump, how cold is too cold?
- Thread starter snowman
- Start date
For winter storage in truly cold temps, I recommend draining the tank and blowing out the lines. On my camper, I also pump RV anti freeze into the lines. You can make a short piece of PEX line that attaches to the input side of the pump, to pull anti freeze from the bottle and through the pump, into the lines. Some campers have that already.
For short periods of time, keeping heat on, with opened cabinets and faucets as you mentioned works.
My recommendation is to fully winterize, and use water containers for winter camping.
For short periods of time, keeping heat on, with opened cabinets and faucets as you mentioned works.
My recommendation is to fully winterize, and use water containers for winter camping.
Good tip on the pex/anti freeze for longer term storage. What overnight lows do you look for before you start turning the heat on at night? It's supposed to be 26 here on Thursday night. Do you typically just set the thermostat to 50 or so and leave it on all night or just run it a while before bed and call it good? If it's common practice to leave the heater on in a camper without being around I'll go for it, but it seems like a fire risk.
If it’s freezing, I set it on the lowest thermostat setting, 45° on my thermostat, and I do leave it on all night.
In a pop up, an electric heater would do the job... if you’re on shore power.
In a pop up, an electric heater would do the job... if you’re on shore power.
A few years ago, notwithstanding my winterization efforts (draining, blowing out lines, adding pink anti-freeze), a drop of water inside my pump froze, expanded and ruptured a diaphragm in my pump. I now remove the pump as part of my winterization. The task is made much easier per a DIY mod of mounting the pump on a board, which is fixed to the cabinet via threaded inserts and screws. It's a <5 minute project each fall and spring.
FTR, we use our camper for mid-winter ski trips. YMMV
FTR, we use our camper for mid-winter ski trips. YMMV
I may be an outlier here, but we use our camper and water system in the winter so I end up winterizing the camper 5-6 times per year. I just empty the water tank by running the faucet, then open the drain valve to get a little more water out. We have a water heater, so I drain that back into the main tank first. I then run the pump dry, and if I think of it, unscrew the little filter cup and dump the water from that too. Takes about 5 minutes and so far in 5 winters, no problems.snowman said:
The one exception is the outdoor shower - there is a low point in the plumbing for that which won't gravity drain so I added shutoff valves for that and blow it out with our on board compressor at the end of the season and leave it shut off all winter.
I have to admit, I didn't do anything special w/ my camper this winter. I used a lot over the winter, so didn't really want to put antifreeze in it, etc. But it sat out unused over a bunch of 20 degree nights, and down to below zero a few times. All I did was open the faucet on the sink, open the outside drain valve. Open all the hot water valves. Then drive home after camping and hope it all got shaken out of the pipes..
The one area I was concerned about and don't see how it could have drained, is the line going to the toilet. It has a long low area. And my thought about it not bursting is that the lines are plastic. They can expand a bit. Plumbers literally say that when specing PEX for a new home build.. "Oh this is sooo much better than copper. Never have to worry about pipes freezing because it expands".
OTOH, I know people here have had their pipes burst, so.. Maybe I got lucky.
The one area I was concerned about and don't see how it could have drained, is the line going to the toilet. It has a long low area. And my thought about it not bursting is that the lines are plastic. They can expand a bit. Plumbers literally say that when specing PEX for a new home build.. "Oh this is sooo much better than copper. Never have to worry about pipes freezing because it expands".
OTOH, I know people here have had their pipes burst, so.. Maybe I got lucky.
This is great stuff. I think we will end up doing jugs for winter camping to play it safe, we will probably just be going out for a few truly cold weekends per year skiing/hunting. I will probably end up plumbing in releases to remove the water pump as it definitely does not look cheap to replace. Sound like the pump is the biggest weak point of the system as far as freezing goes.
Has anyone heard of damage being done to the outdoor shower if it freezes? If the line can expand it seems like it might be alright even if ice forms in there?
Has anyone heard of damage being done to the outdoor shower if it freezes? If the line can expand it seems like it might be alright even if ice forms in there?
Snowman, if you blow out the lines, then run pure RV antifreeze through your pump and into the lines, there should be no issues with the pump. IMO, removing the pump is overkill.
The issue with the outdoor shower (assuming it’s not a quick disconnect) is probably going to be the fixture itself. Blowing it out and RV antifreeze should cover it.
The issue with the outdoor shower (assuming it’s not a quick disconnect) is probably going to be the fixture itself. Blowing it out and RV antifreeze should cover it.
The outdoor shower (on the flatbeds anyway) is a weak point for freezing - the way it is plumbed, water sits in the fittings. It sounds like water freezing in the pex lines is not a big deal, but the fittings are rigid and if water freezes in the fittings they can crack. As I mentioned before, we blow the shower out and added shut offs so we can isolate it for the winter.snowman said:
I have never had a problem, just running the pump dry, no blow out or anti freeze. Removing it seems like overkill, if you were to have a problem, they are not all that expensive to replace.
Snowman...too many variables to come to a system of protecting the water system in all conditions...lots of posts/threads on this forum to give advice and some "food for thought"...
In my opinion there are not any campers or trailers insulated sufficiently to protect the water systems under really severe cold for any length of time without internal heat source...think northern Canada; heck this winter I checked on temp at top of Whitefish ski lift and at 0900hrs it was -22F w/16mph wind.. what are temps and how long are they "low"...
Even my full 7 gallon water jug froze solid this winter on my ski trip [lowest I remember was -8 F]...as for anti-freeze....not my cup of tea, enough chemicals out and about that I don't want to put any in my drinking water system..but to each their own.
If you have a 110v hook-up and a small electric heater, all good. In boils down to sufficient propane or 110v...this of course doesn't work if you are driving for hours is sub-zero temps...
In the end you do your best and it still remains a crap shoot.
Phil
In my opinion there are not any campers or trailers insulated sufficiently to protect the water systems under really severe cold for any length of time without internal heat source...think northern Canada; heck this winter I checked on temp at top of Whitefish ski lift and at 0900hrs it was -22F w/16mph wind.. what are temps and how long are they "low"...
Even my full 7 gallon water jug froze solid this winter on my ski trip [lowest I remember was -8 F]...as for anti-freeze....not my cup of tea, enough chemicals out and about that I don't want to put any in my drinking water system..but to each their own.
If you have a 110v hook-up and a small electric heater, all good. In boils down to sufficient propane or 110v...this of course doesn't work if you are driving for hours is sub-zero temps...
In the end you do your best and it still remains a crap shoot.
Phil
I might try antifreeze this winter in that case. Someone on another thread suggested cheap vodka as a slightly less chemically nasty option. Ill have to look into whether that's safe for the pump some more.
I do have the quick disconnect shower, do they typically have issues since the knobs are poorly shielded from the cold?
Any input on installing a small electric space heater inside the cupboard? It looks to me like all the water lines are in there and that would allow me to heat a smaller space while protecting all the water lines.
I do have the quick disconnect shower, do they typically have issues since the knobs are poorly shielded from the cold?
Any input on installing a small electric space heater inside the cupboard? It looks to me like all the water lines are in there and that would allow me to heat a smaller space while protecting all the water lines.
PaulT
Need gumbo
I haven’t tried this heat cable but the specs look interesting for the application.
https://morelectricheating.com/easy10075-easy-heat-10805-5-feet-of-freeze-free-cable
It is an A/C product that could run off of a very small inverter. 5 ft at 3 watts/ft would be about 15 to 20 watts with inverter losses. With foam pipe insulation around the pipe & cable and a thermal switch that turns it on below 35 degrees, it might work out and not put much of a load on your battery.
Paul
https://morelectricheating.com/easy10075-easy-heat-10805-5-feet-of-freeze-free-cable
It is an A/C product that could run off of a very small inverter. 5 ft at 3 watts/ft would be about 15 to 20 watts with inverter losses. With foam pipe insulation around the pipe & cable and a thermal switch that turns it on below 35 degrees, it might work out and not put much of a load on your battery.
Paul
Awesome idea on the heat wrap, once I install an inverter I will probably go that route.
I have been using a radiant electric heater to keep the camper warm and avoid burning up all my propane, unfortunately this requires me to keep the camper on shore power overnight. I am concerned this may overcharge and damage my AGM batteries. Anyone have experience with this? How long does one have to leave the camper plugged in to overcharge? I might have to go back to using the furnace and just accept going to the filling station more often. Lows here are still in the mid twenties this week.
I have been using a radiant electric heater to keep the camper warm and avoid burning up all my propane, unfortunately this requires me to keep the camper on shore power overnight. I am concerned this may overcharge and damage my AGM batteries. Anyone have experience with this? How long does one have to leave the camper plugged in to overcharge? I might have to go back to using the furnace and just accept going to the filling station more often. Lows here are still in the mid twenties this week.
PaulT
Need gumbo
My Hawk is also a 2014. With the factory power supply/charger, there is an IQ4 controller that makes the power supply a smart charger. It can be left plugged in indefinitely without fear of harming your AGM batteries. Once the batteries are fully charged, it will drop the voltage to the float value with very little current flowing This will keep your batteries in good condition. Every 7 days, it will revert to the bulk/absorption/float cycle to ensure the batteries are always kept happy.
If plugged into shore power while stored in cold weather, you could leave a small space heater set to 40-50 degrees and leave cabinet doors open to ensure no freezing inside without using your propane. I have done that for several years using a 750 watt oil filled space heater. I found one that fits in an egg crate that it won't tip over while driving and just leave it in the camper. Set the thermostat on the radiator where you need it and just plug the camper into shore power when you stop.
The batteries will like the warmth while being kept charged.
Paul
If plugged into shore power while stored in cold weather, you could leave a small space heater set to 40-50 degrees and leave cabinet doors open to ensure no freezing inside without using your propane. I have done that for several years using a 750 watt oil filled space heater. I found one that fits in an egg crate that it won't tip over while driving and just leave it in the camper. Set the thermostat on the radiator where you need it and just plug the camper into shore power when you stop.
The batteries will like the warmth while being kept charged.
Paul
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