Why we need to self regulate. Tread lightly on public lands

[Mthomas]

https://www.kunr.org/post/more-poop-public-lands-prompts-federal-agencies-clamp-down-dispersed-camping
Here is an unfortunate developement from the BLM
With so many people out enjoying our public lands, unless we all self regulate, educate others, and respect nature this may be our future. There is more and more land being closed off every year.
Tread lightly.

Thought this was the right forum, but since so many people go to the specific camper forums for the outstanding tech info/ support, it would be great if it could be cross posted by the admins.

 

[larryqp]

Education is the key, plus maybe rules for proper human waste handling in dispersed camping areas, similar to river corridors. Many rivers require all campers to have an approved "groover" which is just a slang term for a approved method of human waste disposal system.

 

[Mighty Dodge Ram]

I carry nothing but WAGG bags now. It’s disgusting to see “white flowers” waving in the breeze in an otherwise pristine location. Yes, education and, unfortunately, enforcement is the key. Pack it in, pack it out now includes human waste.

 

[PaulT]

The NPR story left out solutions and primarily aired complaints. Why not add links to sites explaining proper feces etiquette for different areas. Should feces be buried 4 feet deep or 6 inches deep in desert or alpine areas? Should toilet paper be packed out or buried with the waste?

I attended a seminar this past weekend on handling human waste after a major disaster such as a Cascade Subduction Zone major quake and recommendations were given depending on rural, suburban, urban regions and expected duration before sanitation returned to "normal"/ Many opinions were expressed. Some were based on camping experiences.

Laws regarding disposal of solid waste in landfills vary so what to do with waste packed out in wag bags from the back country?

What are best practices for human waste? Coyotes, herbivores, and birds seem to just make a deposit on top of the ground and who is to argue? Cats bury their waste by scraping dust, dirt, and forest litter over the deposit which is shallow burial at best.

I don't know the answer(s).

Should WTW be leading the way?

Any experts here? I may be an expert on creating the waste but definitely not expert in proper disposal under varying conditions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Paul

 

[Rdy2Roam]

I usually take a brown bag with sawdust then burn it when I'm done. Not sure if that's the right thing to do but it works.

 

[rando]

The best practice is to pack it out. We have also started using Wagg bags under almost all circumstances and dump these in landfill. I don't think landfill is really an issue - given the hundreds of millions of diapers disposed of in landfills every year, a few bags of grown up poop will not make a difference. Port-a-porties dumped into the sewer are also an excellent option.

While self regulation is a noble idea, I don't really see an issue with the BLM/USFS/NPS requiring some sort of waste system. This is already the case in areas like Canyon Lands NP, and it is far rarer to see 'white flowers' within the park boundary, whereas in much of the surrounding land you could be mistaken for thinking the Sego Lilies are in bloom.

My golden rule for behavior on public lands is that if you wouldn't do it in your own backyard, than you shouldn't do it in the publics back yard.

 

[ski3pin]

My golden rule for behavior on public lands is that if you wouldn't do it in your own backyard, than you shouldn't do it in the publics back yard.

Rando, that is well said. Thank you. I take it in a little different direction. I grew up in a small town environment. So I ask, "Would I do this in my neighbor's backyard, good people who I respect?"

 

[pvstoy]

I usually take a brown bag with sawdust then burn it when I'm done. Not sure if that's the right thing to do but it works.

Many of wild land fires have been started by burning toilet paper. Best not to do that out west.

I have seen more and more where a attempt was made to bury waste and paper only to be dug up by some animal. It should be deep enough to cover the scent.

 

[LAWNMOWERMAN]

The poop aint the problem,the TP is the problem. Pack it out in a plastic baggie.No big deal.

 

[searching for nowhere]

I think there needs to be a national educational campaign like the Smokey the Bear campaign. People don't understand that today's TP is strong and doesn't decompose rapidly. They don't understand that their waste has germs in it. We need easy to buy poop bags. I stopped in a large grocery store the other day to buy poop bags (cheap storage bags sold for food) and all they had were zip lock type bags! And we need places to dispose of the filled poop bags. Many places are going trash free, pack in - pack out but there needs to be a place to deposit poop bags. No one in a SUV/car wants days worth of poop bags inside their car.

At City of Rocks a maintenance lead told me they were constantly finding filled green dog poop bags tied and set on the side of a trail. She thought people didn't know what to do. Huh? Later I found a full bag on the side of the trail. I was the only one in the parking lot so it wasn't left to be picked up later.

Now that I've written this, it seems like I need to start writing emails, pushing my idea of a nation wide campaign.

 

[Machinebuilder]

The poop aint the problem,the TP is the problem. Pack it out in a plastic baggie.No big deal.

I think you're missing the point.

In high use areas all of the waste is an issue, solid, liquid, grey water, garbage etc.

When I took a trip on the main Salmon about 20 years ago, we were taught that because all of the campsites get used by large groups every night, that is the reason that all solid waste is packed out and to pee in the river, fill your mouth with water before spitting after brushing your teeth ,dishwater was filtered before being dispersed.

I think that there is no one size fits all solution. In the areas where there is not much use I prefer digging a small cathole and burying poop and TP so it can't be seen (I've also caught my dogs circling back to it).

I think in heavily used areas they should build more campgrounds and charge enough to keep them maintained, or enforce the pack it out rule. I know of several I will not use the pit toilets because they are so bad.

 

[PaulT]

Reminds me of the Pogo strip from 1971.

Paul

 

[Smokecreek1]

Just got an alert from the Wild Owyhee Canyon Lands Organization. Seems like there is a new BLM Land Management Plan out for the Owyhee Canyon Lands and SE Oregon. It has a 90 day comment period and they are asking for comments. I tried and failed to paste it here (my fault again). After what happened to a certain ranchers permit out Burns BLM (an good example of the new governing style of this administration) we all need to reply and comment if want want to keep these lands open, after all Public Lands are our lands not just their Lands . Here is the Email address to comment on/or sign up for info:WildOwyhee.Org.---again sorry.

Smoke

 

[PaulT]

Just got an alert from the Wild Owyhee Canyon Lands Organization. Seems like there is a new BLM Land Management Plan out for the Owyhee Canyon Lands and SE Oregon. It has a 90 day comment period and they are asking for comments. I tried and failed to paste it here (my fault again). After what happened to a certain ranchers permit out Burns BLM (an good example of the new governing style of this administration) we all need to reply and comment if want want to keep these lands open, after all Public Lands are our lands not just their Lands . Here is the Email address to comment on/or sign up for info:WildOwyhee.Org.---again sorry.

Smoke

Is this the site you wanted to link?

Paul

 

[Smokecreek1]

No Paul-that is the official BLM Fed Reg Notice and you can comment/reply on it-it would not hurt to do it. The notice I got was WildOwyhee. Org. That site is a non-government interest site-like Sierra Club etc., and going on to it makes it easier to put your views out and submit them: it describes what the issues are and what the organization is about. Frankly using it is just an easier way of doing it w/o using the official site, especially if you don't have the time. (as a ret.fed, in some ways it is better to use the gov site because it seems more sort of more natural (to me anyway) while other is more of a generic form with a space to comment on it-send both in, the more replies they get the better for us.

Smoke

 

[Andy Douglass]

We just stayed at Wench Creek CG in the El Dorado NF last week. We were at the end of a 2 week trip and got into the area late, so we didn't have time to check all of the open CGs in the area so we settled on Wench Creek. There was quite a few toilet papers piles around our $28 per night (!) campsite. It was obviously new and not left over from trespass-campers in the off-season when the toilets were locked. I was disgusted, and then later I realized why; the pit toilets themselves were horrendous. We had stayed at 7 other sites around CA/NV/ID, including several free BLM sites, and the most expensive campground had the worst toilets. I can't imagine what the toilets at Wench Creek are like at the end of August. Of course it is a next to Union Valley Reservoir so it attracts people of "varying intellect", i.e. power boaters/skiers.

Lat year, we stayed at Lake Owyhee SP on the reservoir and I noticed that all along the Owyhee river on the way up to the reservoir, the BLM had placed porta potties every 1/4 mile. This is a long dispersed camping area that looked like it gets busy with fishing. Were the bright blue potties kind of an eyesore? Absolutely, but at least the biohazard was contained.

I often have pretty bleak thoughts about the future of our culture in this country as it seems like a lot of the courtesy and common sense is slipping away. I honestly don't think this problem can be solved by education. Part of me feels like enforcement is the only viable way to control the issue, but enforcement of any waste disposal laws would be almost impossible. Unfortunately, I think the Owyhee River model of just carpet bombing areas with porta potties is probably the most realistic solution. Maybe I am just a cynic.

 

[ski3pin]

Wench Creek is in my backyard. Please call Pacific District -

Pacific Ranger District
Dave Pereira, Acting District Ranger
7887 Highway 50
Pollock Pines, CA 95726-9602
530-644-2349
Hours: 8:00 am - 4:30 pm

Please be polite and honestly state what you experienced. They need to hear it. The Eldorado National Forest changed the concession company this year that runs the campgrounds. It is Royal Elk Concessions first year. From what I've seen, they are on a steep learning curve and need to step up their game. You can help make that happen.

 

[Batman]

We noticed, that in our area of SW Colorado, the company contracted by the Forest Service to run some of their campgrounds had frequent staff shortages resulting in poor campground conditions. It is important for the managing agencies to have public feedback on the performance of their contractors.

 

[ETAV8R]

Quoted: "I think there needs to be a national educational campaign like the Smokey the Bear campaign. People don't understand that today's TP is strong and doesn't decompose rapidly. They don't understand that their waste has germs in it. We need easy to buy poop bags. I stopped in a large grocery store the other day to buy poop bags (cheap storage bags sold for food) and all they had were zip lock type bags! And we need places to dispose of the filled poop bags. Many places are going trash free, pack in - pack out but there needs to be a place to deposit poop bags. No one in a SUV/car wants days worth of poop bags inside their car.


At City of Rocks a maintenance lead told me they were constantly finding filled green dog poop bags tied and set on the side of a trail. She thought people didn't know what to do. Huh? Later I found a full bag on the side of the trail. I was the only one in the parking lot so it wasn't left to be picked up later.

Now that I've written this, it seems like I need to start writing emails, pushing my idea of a nation wide campaign."



I agree. Unfortunately we don't see the "don't litter" or "only you can stop fires" campaigns on TV anymore. It would be nice to see them revived along with proper waste disposal information. On the White Rim they suggest packing out human waste when possible. There are pit toilets along the route. The ranger told me that if there is no way to pack it out please do your business in the road. Buried in the roadway. It gets the most traffic and compression. I have wagbags if necessary but if it is a low use area I will find a location to do my business but the TP and wipes are always brought with me via the following:

Instead of burying toilet paper and any worry about contaminated hands carry a "Murphy" kit to be exact. It is comprised of a small sack, roll of TP, wipes, and plastic/latex type gloves.
Glove up before filling the cathole, wipe and leave TP/Wipes to the side in a pile.
After cleaning up, grab the pile with one gloved hand and turn glove inside out over the TP/wipes.
Next grab the one gloved package with the other gloved hand and turn it inside out as well.
Cover the cathole with dirt.
Finally walk away with your clean hands and fully encompassed glove package of TP/wipes knowing you didn't leave **** tickets, ass wipe to be uncovered by nature to litter the environment.
The Murphy Method!

 

[ski3pin]

I will bring this issue to the Pacific District's attention and make sure they are aware of conditions.

We just stayed at Wench Creek CG in the El Dorado NF last week. We were at the end of a 2 week trip and got into the area late, so we didn't have time to check all of the open CGs in the area so we settled on Wench Creek. There was quite a few toilet papers piles around our $28 per night (!) campsite. It was obviously new and not left over from trespass-campers in the off-season when the toilets were locked. I was disgusted, and then later I realized why; the pit toilets themselves were horrendous. We had stayed at 7 other sites around CA/NV/ID, including several free BLM sites, and the most expensive campground had the worst toilets. I can't imagine what the toilets at Wench Creek are like at the end of August. Of course it is a next to Union Valley Reservoir so it attracts people of "varying intellect", i.e. power boaters/skiers.

Lat year, we stayed at Lake Owyhee SP on the reservoir and I noticed that all along the Owyhee river on the way up to the reservoir, the BLM had placed porta potties every 1/4 mile. This is a long dispersed camping area that looked like it gets busy with fishing. Were the bright blue potties kind of an eyesore? Absolutely, but at least the biohazard was contained.

I often have pretty bleak thoughts about the future of our culture in this country as it seems like a lot of the courtesy and common sense is slipping away. I honestly don't think this problem can be solved by education. Part of me feels like enforcement is the only viable way to control the issue, but enforcement of any waste disposal laws would be almost impossible. Unfortunately, I think the Owyhee River model of just carpet bombing areas with porta potties is probably the most realistic solution. Maybe I am just a cynic.

Wench Creek is in my backyard. Please call Pacific District -

Pacific Ranger District
Dave Pereira, Acting District Ranger
7887 Highway 50
Pollock Pines, CA 95726-9602
530-644-2349
Hours: 8:00 am - 4:30 pm

Please be polite and honestly state what you experienced. They need to hear it. The Eldorado National Forest changed the concession company this year that runs the campgrounds. It is Royal Elk Concessions first year. From what I've seen, they are on a steep learning curve and need to step up their game. You can help make that happen.