24 replies to this topic

[brp]

"The concern raised about a cool location becoming too well known were triggered for me when I watched your video. The risk of publishing more links/videos/GPS enabled photos/blogs or written posts, that are searchable via google, the more people will be informed of your/our favorite spots."

I understand what you are saying, we are already having the secrecy issue from the get go. Buckeye Hot Springs are already very well known, I found them in a book I bought at a gas station near Lake Tahoe. Regardless, it illustrates the point.

So, we may not ever be able to reach total agreement, but maybe we should start making specific suggestions about how this could work. I'll go first:

-The data is only available to members.
-You must contribute at least one new site to become a member.
-You cannot reveal location specifics to non-members. (You can bring your family etc, but don't bring strangers, don't blog about it, etc.)

[MarkBC]

Guys-I'm not saying "don't create some type of list and keep it secret", but isn't that the purpose of this site! Those interested in being out there are both reading and taking part in these discussions about these neat places to go and things to see:P . In fact, most of us are going to go out there and respect not only what we learned here and the environment but also those like us who want to enjoy it. I've mentioned before how this site has helped me-an old desert rat-find neat places to go and extra ways to help me survive out there. I'm more with the group that says come on out and if you don't act like a fool, maybe you'll get to see something real neat!!!!
But remember even we had to start somewhere!
Smoke

I'm with Smokecreek on this.

I don't like the idea of a "society of geographic secrets".
And so...the simple solution for me is that I won't join that group -- problem solved!

But, having said that, because I love to share my opinions, and because this is a public forum, I'll say:

• It feels wrong to me to designate a spot on public land as the secret playground of me and my buddies. It's true that I don't like it if I don't have a cool spot to myself, but my personal ethics are not: "What's best for me is what's best." What I like doesn't make it right.
• Afraid that too many of the "wrong kind of people" will ruin it? Who are you to decide who should have access and what carrying-capacity is? And how will you ensure all new members will be "the right kind people" -- non-despoilers?
• The argument that "people should have the willingness to get out there and find places on their own" (rather than finding them on Google Maps) obviously breaks down when you're getting info for a secret spot from a fellow "society" member. What happened to "finding it on your own"?
• How -- and by whom -- is a membership-qualifying "new site" going to be approved? For example, what if I offered "Alvord Desert" to get in? Too obvious to qualify as a new site? How about "Coyote Lake"? That has about 1% of the visitation that the Alvord does, but I know several people who know about it, and there must be thousands more who do, too. Seems like whose "new site" qualifies will become the subjective judgement of the approval committee. And who's going to be on the approval committee?
• It doesn't seem right to me that people are discussing forming an elite/private group on an open, information-sharing website like WTW.
  Why not take it offline (for example: "Send PM's to BRP if you want to discuss this.") rather talk about a private group that fellow WTW members may or may not qualify to join. How would they not qualify? By not knowing a secret spot to share.

In the 20 months that I've been part of this site I've only learned of one secret spot that I would have probably not found on my own, and I've honored the spirit in which the spot was told to me and not shared that spot in trip reports. But aside from that one instance, I intend to continue sharing trip reports with place-specific references.
So...probably shouldn't share any secret spots with me from now on, 'cause I don't believe in 'em.
- Mark

[brp]

Lots of rhetorical questions there. I am openly stating that this is an idea of mine that is in its infancy. I am openly stating I would like input and assistance.

There seems to be general agreement that precious resources need to be generally anonymous, until they are protected or vandals/abusers are not a threat. That is not unreasonable at all. Look at all of the desecrated rock art or the "stolen" petrified tree from Yelllowstone.

That being said, if you are not on-board, fine, your choice.

If you would like to help develop this idea, shoot me a PM. I am especially looking for assistance/advice regarding the best way to organize it.

I will check out back country navigator tomorrow, thanks for the tip Lighthawk.

[Smokecreek1]

I'm with Smokecreek on this.

I don't like the idea of a "society of geographic secrets".
And so...the simple solution for me is that I won't join that group -- problem solved!

But, having said that, because I love to share my opinions, and because this is a public forum, I'll say:

• It feels wrong to me to designate a spot on public land as the secret playground of me and my buddies. It's true that I don't like it if I don't have a cool spot to myself, but my personal ethics are not: "What's best for me is what's best." What I like doesn't make it right.
• Afraid that too many of the "wrong kind of people" will ruin it? Who are you to decide who should have access and what carrying-capacity is? And how will you ensure all new members will be "the right kind people" -- non-despoilers?
• The argument that "people should have the willingness to get out there and find places on their own" (rather than finding them on Google Maps) obviously breaks down when you're getting info for a secret spot from a fellow "society" member. What happened to "finding it on your own"?
• How -- and by whom -- is a membership-qualifying "new site" going to be approved? For example, what if I offered "Alvord Desert" to get in? Too obvious to qualify as a new site? How about "Coyote Lake"? That has about 1% of the visitation that the Alvord does, but I know several people who know about it, and there must be thousands more who do, too. Seems like whose "new site" qualifies will become the subjective judgement of the approval committee. And who's going to be on the approval committee?
• It doesn't seem right to me that people are discussing forming an elite/private group on an open, information-sharing website like WTW.
  Why not take it offline (for example: "Send PM's to BRP if you want to discuss this.") rather talk about a private group that fellow WTW members may or may not qualify to join. How would they not qualify? By not knowing a secret spot to share.

In the 20 months that I've been part of this site I've only learned of one secret spot that I would have probably not found on my own, and I've honored the spirit in which the spot was told to me and not shared that spot in trip reports. But aside from that one instance, I intend to continue sharing trip reports with place-specific references.
So...probably shouldn't share any secret spots with me from now on, 'cause I don't believe in 'em.
- Mark

Mark-I could not have said it better! This site seems to be for people who like it out there and want to share their experiences with the unwashed masses and maybe even learn something in exchange. After thirty years (actually allot more of using it) of dealing with those who both love it and abuse it and those who think its theirs and don't want to share it with the rest of us, it is still public land. From a legal standpoint, go ahead a form some private group that has private sites-and a private user web site, but anything on public land is (sometimes unfortunately) open to all to use. I've spent to much time over the years trying to protect those special areas out there with fences, cops and the rest of it and yes,trying to keep them secret, but if there is a way to find and then destroy them, someone will do it--but it's still public land to use as long as they follow the law( or got caught). Well. Mark, see you out there soon, lot's of things to see and still do-even for us unwashed masses!

Smoke

[brp]

I know this concept has gotten mixed feedback, but I do want to report that I have made a private map and through using My Places on Google Maps and Google
Earth on my phone, I am able to view everything OFFLINE!

This is a great tool. You can see your current location in Google Earth, so make a map of places you know you want to see, load it on your phone, then take it with you.
It will be great for finding trailheads and other locations that are vague or you have poor directions to.

You need to zoom in on your Places on Google Earth and it will put them into memory, so that portion
and zoom level will be available offline.

Fire away with questions, if there are any.