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Ultimate Battery Thread


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#1 ckent323

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:29 AM

I see there are ultimate threads on a number of topics but not batteries.  I had to do a lot of reading to understand the various types of batteries and then ultimately determine what I wanted to use for my house batteries.

 

Since I see lots of other folks posting questions about batteries I thought it would be useful to collect some useful threads and web links in one place.

 

I will start with some good web sites on batteries that I have found.  Below that are links to manufaacturer info and at the bottom links to battery related threads on WTW.

 

If I've missed a thread or you know of something we should add, just post and I'll add it to the first post.

 

There are three basic types of batteries used in vehicles, Campers and RVs:

  • Starting
  • Deep Cycle
  • Dual Purpose (starting/psudo-deep cycle hybrid)

The construction of these types of batteries are usually one of the following:

  • Flooded Lead Acid (FLA) 
  • Absorbed Gas Mat (AGM)
  • Gel Cell
  • Lithium Ferrous Phosphate (LiFePO4)

Each of these has various pros and cons which make careful selection important.  Follow the links in the next post to learn more.

 

There are various ratings for batteries that include cold cranking amps (CCA), Cranking amps (CA), reserve capacity (RC) and amp hours (AH).  These ratings depend on time and battery temperature so it is important to understand the differences (read the info at the links).

 

In general, for our camper house batteries we are interested in the 20 hour AH rating.

 

Regards,

 

Craig


Edited by ckent323, 31 December 2017 - 06:06 PM.

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#2 ckent323

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:40 AM

Web links to Battery info:

Battery Basics - https://www.batterys...ery-basics.html

Battery University - http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ - https://www.solar-el...attery-faq.html

What to look for when choosing a battery - http://jgdarden.com/...faq/carfaq7.htm

Extensive treatise on Lithium batteries -
http://www.pbase.com...on_boats&page=1

Deep Cycle Marine Battery Test
https://www.practica...est_5244-1.html

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
http://marine-electr...y_faq/b_faq.htm

Lead Acid Battery - Lifetime Study
http://www.power-thr...White Paper.pdf

Should I not let my AGM battery discharge below 70% or 50%?
https://www.quora.co...-below-70-or-50

Battery Life (and Death) - Electropedia
https://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries
https://batteryunive...based_batteries



Lead-Acid Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List 2017 with some manufacturer links

http://jgdarden.com/...aq/batbrand.htm


More battery manufacturer links:

Trojan - http://www.trojanbat...ASAAEgJGZvD_BwE

Rolls - http://raysolar.ca/p...ASAAEgJm3vD_BwE

Lifeline - http://lifelinebatte...teries/gpl-4ct/

East Penn (Deka) - http://www.eastpennm...ional-vehicles/


WTW Forum links to Battery info:

Adding a Second Battery
http://www.wanderthe...ttery-question/

AGM Battery Recommendation -
http://www.wanderthe...n/?hl=batteries

Battery choice - http://www.wanderthe...battery-choice/

AGM deep cycle vs. AGM solar battery -
http://www.wanderthe...ies#entry169205

LiFe Blue Battery - http://www.wanderthe...y/?hl=batteries

Using camper battery bank/solar to recharge other battery banks (such as boat batteries) - http://www.wanderthe...s/?hl=batteries

Batteries (new battery advice) - http://www.wanderthe...s/?hl=batteries

Low cost DIY Lithium camper batteries -
http://www.wanderthe...mper-batteries/

6 volt Dual Battery Set up - http://www.wanderthe...battery-set-up/

Lithium update - http://www.wanderthe...lithium-update/

Second Battery Setup - http://www.wanderthe...ons/?hl=lithium

House Battery as Helper to Truck Battery - http://www.wanderthe...ium#entry149600

How to Run a 75 AH and 100 AH Battery at the Same Time:
http://www.wanderthe...-the-same-time/

Second Battery Question
http://www.wanderthe...ion/?hl=battery

Ordering Tomorrow! Second Battery Option?
http://www.wanderthe...ery#entry189144

batteries - (effect of dead truck battery on camper battery(s)
http://www.wanderthe...ies/?hl=battery

Frozen Battery
http://www.wanderthe...ery/?hl=battery

Battery Planning
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic charge

Under-the-hood dual battery setup and FWC shell
http://www.wanderthe...arge#entry38305

Adding a Lithium Ion Battery to FWC
http://www.wanderthe...utomatic charge

12V LiFePo4 (Lithium Ion) Battery Project Photos
http://www.wanderthe...ifepo4 +battery

12V LiFePo4 batteries - possible choices
http://www.wanderthe...ssible-choices/

2x6=12 and 2x12=12 but which way to go?
http://www.wanderthe...hich-way-to-go/

AGM Charging Profile Graph
http://www.wanderthe...ery#entry207727

Camper Batteries
http://www.wanderthe...ery#entry207163

Battery relocation good idea or bad?
http://www.wanderthe...bad/?hl=battery

Camper batteries drop when truck is running
http://www.wanderthe...ing/?hl=battery

Lithium LiFePo4 comparison video - Very Informative - Pre-Built vs DIY
http://www.wanderthe...e-built-vs-diy/

Converting to 6v Batteries? Can i keep the 12s too?
http://www.wanderthe...ep-the-12s-too/

What battery are you using with your solar system?
http://www.wanderthe...tem/?hl=battery

New Battery
http://www.wanderthe...-battery/page-3

Adding a dual battery system for camper
http://www.wanderthe...tem-for-camper/

Charging Choice
http://www.wanderthe...harging-choice/


WTW Forum links to Info on Battery Charge and Monitoring Electronics:

CTEX CTX Battery Sense: http://www.wanderthe...-battery-sense/

Are all Group 24 Batteries the Same Size?: http://www.wanderthe...ger#entry183395

FWC Battery Care: http://www.wanderthe...ger#entry174850

Battery Charge/Maintenance:
http://www.wanderthe...ger#entry170376

Automatic Charge Relay - How to Improve your battery Isolator
http://www.wanderthe...ger#entry148303

How do you keep your batteries charged when......
http://www.wanderthe...ger#entry163314

Sure Power 1314 versus 1315 Battery Separator
http://www.wanderthe...tery-separator/

Victron 702 Install - Tips Appreciated
http://www.wanderthe...ted/?hl=victron

Who's Installed and Inverter?
http://www.wanderthe...ery#entry190183

Reasons to add Charger - Maintainer for Shell Models
http://www.wanderthe...els/?hl=battery

Power Interters
http://www.wanderthe...ers/?hl=battery

Battery Isolator - Noob question
http://www.wanderthe...rge#entry179265

Monitor Battery, Solar & Truck Charging - Find Truck Wires in Fleet?
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic +charge

Favorite Battery Monitor System?
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic charge

When Do You Recharge? (charge separator questions)
http://www.wanderthe...rge#entry172587

House Battery as Helper to Truck Battery
http://www.wanderthe...rge#entry149589

Battery separator question
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic charge

Automatic Charge Relay - How to Improve Your Battery Isolatior
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic +charge

Auxillary Battery wiring help needed
http://www.wanderthe...rge#entry136210

Battery Age affects charging (trickle or solar)
http://www.wanderthe...rge#entry125722

Camper Charging Issues
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic charge

Truck Mounted Camper Batteries
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic +charge

Truck to Camper Electrical (wiring for charging batteries)
http://www.wanderthe...arge#entry81234

Battery Wiring / Shutoff
http://www.wanderthe...arge#entry62312

Camper Battery Won't Charge
http://www.wanderthe...arge#entry56853

Sure Power 1314 Recall - FYI
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic charge

Charging House Battery
http://www.wanderthe...arge#entry53532

DC to DC - 12 volt battery charger
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic charge

Battery Separator -
http://www.wanderthe...arge#entry47406

SurePower 1314/1315 vs. "Battery Switch"
http://www.wanderthe...arge#entry41511

Improved battery charging is available cheap
http://www.wanderthe...tomatic +charge

Convertor Questions
http://www.wanderthe...harge#entry5544

State of Charge Monitor (Blue Sea?)
http://www.wanderthe...nitor-blue-sea/

Charging Vehicle and House Batteries that are Different Types (e.g. FLA and AGM)
http://www.wanderthe...eg-fla-and-agm/

House battery and started battery with solar confusion
http://www.wanderthe...olar-confusion/

Alternator vs Solar Charging
http://www.wanderthe...solar-charging/

Charge controller won't stay in float
http://www.wanderthe...ery#entry205591

Low cost Wifi Battery Monitor
http://www.wanderthe...tor/?hl=battery

Automatic charge controller or battery isolator voltage measurement
http://www.wanderthe...ent/?hl=battery

Can The FWC Smart Controller/Q4 Charge The Truck Battery?
http://www.wanderthe...ery/?hl=battery

Wiring question. Battery grounding
http://www.wanderthe...tery-grounding/

Where to Put Victron Solar Stuff?
http://www.wanderthe...on-solar-stuff/

Shunt and Battery Monitor
http://www.wanderthe...attery-monitor/

My Idea of the Perfect Truck Camper Electrical System
http://www.wanderthe...ctrical-system/

Power connection help
http://www.wanderthe...onnection-help/

LiFePo4 charging
http://www.wanderthe...fepo4-charging/

Blue Sea ACR question
http://www.wanderthe...a-acr-question/

Upgrading Wiring to Charge Camper Batteries From Truck?
http://www.wanderthe...ies-from-truck/

MPPT + DC-DC = (cheap) B2B
http://www.wanderthe...c-dc-cheap-b2b/

Edited by ckent323, 14 September 2019 - 08:15 PM.

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#3 ckent323

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 01:36 AM

Why you might want to consider adding a battery monitor to your house battery bank even if you do not have solar panels.

 

The FWC water and battery panel shows three lights to indicate battery condition and one light to indicate charge state.

 

Charge (green on, not green off)  

Good

Fair

Weak

 

Those lights don’t actually give you much useful information about the battery and the state of charge and if the batteries are getting to the end of their usable life.  There is no way to tell if the particular battery in your camper is fully charged, close to fully charged, at 40 % charge at 30% charge or whatever. 

 

A person may or may not care and just let the charging and discharging do what it will do, but some of us want to maximize the life of our batteries as well as know when there is something wrong (diagnose issues) or when they are getting near the end of their usable life.  That is why we instrument our batteries with battery monitors. 

 

With a good battery monitor, one that can be programmed for the max voltage for your battery, you can see the state of charge of the battery (volts and percent capacity) and you can use it, among other things,  to determine what various electrical items draw when in use, which is useful for some of us to know. 

 

So this is one of those pick your poison kinds of decisions.  Some of us want and use the information and others may not care one way or another.

 

For a real good tutorial on lead acid batteries here is a link:

 

http://batteryuniver...based_batteries

 

See also:

 

http://batteryuniver...scharge_methods

 

and

 

http://batteryuniver...ad_acid_battery

 

 

I like the Victron SmartSolar products for the quality/price as well as the bluetooth connectivity to the Victron app on my iphone that allows me to check on what is going on when I am within about 50 feet of the camper.  However, some folks like other products so you may want to shop around and compare.

 

 

Here are Some Simple Guidelines for Charging Lead Acid Batteries

  • Charge in a well-ventilated area. Hydrogen gas generated during charging is explosive. (See BU-703: Health Concerns with Batteries)
  • Choose the appropriate charge program for flooded, gel and AGM batteries. Check manufacturer’s specifications on recommended voltage thresholds.
  • Recharge lead acid batteries after each use to prevent sulfation. Do not store on low charge.
  • The plates of flooded batteries must always be fully submerged in electrolyte. Fill the battery with distilled or de-ionized water to cover the plates if low. Never add electrolyte.
  • Fill water level to designated level after charging. Overfilling when the battery is on low charge can cause acid spillage during charging.
  • The formation of gas bubbles in a flooded lead acid indicates that the battery is reaching full state-of-charge. (Hydrogen appears on negative plate and oxygen on positive plate).
  • Lower the float charge voltage if the ambient temperature is higher than 29°C (85°F).
  • Do not allow a lead acid to freeze. An empty battery freezes sooner than one that is fully charged. Never charge a frozen battery.
  • Avoid charging at temperatures above 49°C (120°F).

Edited by ckent323, 10 March 2018 - 01:48 AM.

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#4 rubberlegs

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 05:39 PM

 

The FWC water and battery panel shows three lights to indicate battery condition and one light to indicate charge state.

 

Charge (green on, not green off)  

Good

Fair

Weak

 

 

 

So  does the monitor panel that shows water tank level and battery level mean this:

 

C light: on if charging

G light: Good (any idea what level of charge this is?)

F light: Fair (again, any idea? Should we not use the battery?)

L light: Low (don't use the battery?)


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#5 Old Crow

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 08:22 PM

A couple of years ago that panel in a 2016 Fleet was identified as a KIB Electronics M1106.

 

I called KIB at the time and the parts guy told me the voltages are:

 

Charge = 12.5 and up

Good = 11.7 to 12.5 v

Fair = 11.2 to 11.7v

Low = under 11.2v

 

I don't have one so can't verify that info. 

 

Please note, however, that this thread says the voltages for M-series panels are:

 

Charge 12.7V+
Good 12.1V+
Fair 11.6V+
Low 6V+

 

So I called again today--- just a few minutes ago--- and talked to 'Walt' in Tech Support.

 

He told me the levels are:

 

C (Charge) is 12.5 to 13v 

G (Good) is 11.7 to 12.5v

F (Fair) is 11.2 to 11.7v

L (Low) is 10.0 to 11.2v

 

He also said voltages are within 5% and please remember that these are voltages at the panel not at the battery (meaning you have losses between the battery and panel to account for)

 

I also asked if these were specifically for the M1106 or M-Series or what.  He said those are M-Series voltages.

 

Nice guy.  When I thanked him for the info he said to call anytime, that's what they're there for.

 

Note that I'm not sure the M1106 is still used in current FWC models. 


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#6 Vic Harder

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 09:05 PM

Those are terrible numbers to have lights for.  Most AGM batteries are at 50% at 12.2V, which I treat as "dead" - time to recharge NOW.  I know rando will say you can go lower, and it is true, at the cost of battery longevity.  


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#7 craig333

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 09:09 PM

Wow, if thats true its worth than useless. 


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#8 pvstoy

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 09:20 PM

Yea those panels are black magic numbers that are reference to give you notice.  Only if you have those equivalent numbers pasted next to the light how can one remember.   Never used those panels and thinking to take mine out, just need to rewire a switch for the water pump.  Even the water tank level I get a better reality by just looking at the tank for its level ( I can see my tank easily).


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#9 Ted

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 02:38 AM

On our recent trip to Yellowstone our batteries seemed to be drained daily despite having solar and driving each day. Our 12v fridge was on but only pulls about 12 ah a day. We only ran the heater first thing in the morning, not overnight. All lights are LED. We have 150 ah and should not have had a problem. This has me thinking... If I put new batteries in a flashlight and turn it on it is nice and bright. An hour later it is still nice and bright. But if I have old batteries in a flashlight and turn it on it is nice and bright but within a couple of minutes it has faded.

 

Do 12v AGM batteries work in a similar manner? I had the batteries tested today and they are both showing a full charge. But they are the original ones from FWC in our 4 and 1/2 year old camper. So does everything look fine when we first start using them but they run down in a much shorter period than newer batteries would?


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#10 pvstoy

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Posted 16 September 2018 - 04:39 AM

Sounds plausible, but you also need to think over those 4 1/2 years how the batteries were treated and were they fully charged properly.  Charged up to full after every trip, meaning a proper bulk, adsorb and then on float voltage with the proper voltage levels?  

 

While on this last trip you said "...our batteries seemed to be drained daily despite having solar and driving each day."...

 

 You do own a Toyota and might not expect to get the alternator to give you a full proper charge, might just be the way it is. What version of battery separator do you have?  

 

But you did have the system for 4 1/2 years and I don't remember you complaining before.  Could just be that time to replace.  Here lately getting batteries up to fully charged during or after the trip? Do you have a battery monitor I can't remember.

 

Going for fall colors this year?  


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Patrick

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