Automatic Charge Relay - How to Improve your battery isolator

Advmoto,

I have already traded Q&A with a Blue Sea rep. He told me that the ACR will accommodate different battery types (chemistry) but only one at a time. So both batteries must be the same chemistry but that chemistry can be FLA, SLA, AGM, Gel - not sure about LiFePO4.

(BTW: The CTEK and Xantrex reps also said that both batteries must have the same chemistry when using their systems)

The issue is having different chemistry batteries connected to the ML-ACR and in my case (and yours) overcharging the AGMs in the battery bank. You really don't know if you are shortening the life of the battery unless you monitor the state of charge (SOC) to make sure it is being charged correctly. The change is useful life may be reducing it from 10 years to 4 or 5 years (or even less) depending on how often you use the camper and how frequently and long your drives are (causing the ACR to be sending charge to the battery bank).

If you have a Solar system and a smart solar controller then it is probable the Solar charger is trying to keep your batteries charged correctly but I think the ML-ACR if always connected, and if it is set up to properly charge your FLA starting battery, will keep trying to charge the house batteries even after they should be in absorption of float stage (i.e. overcharge them).

The only way to know for sure is to have a battery monitor installed on your house battery bank so you can monitor the state of charge (SOC). Otherwise, there is really no way to know and your battery may last for a few years and then die and you may then be wondering why they did not last very long.

There is a way to use these systems in set-ups like ours having two different battery chemistrys and I cover that in the topic referenced below.

I am wondering - do you monitor the SOC of your house batteries?

(BTW: I basically covered all of this in the topic I started on "Charging Vehicle and House Batteries that Are Different Types " I put that link in comment #77 on page 8)

Regards,

Craig
 
Craig, I think we are overcomplicating this.... kudo's to rando for keeping me real on this forum!

I have AGM's in my camper, and a coil-wound (optima brand) AGM in the truck. The manufacturers spec sheets asks for different charging curves on these two batteries. And yes, the ideal would be to have smart chargers in both the truck and camper, but 99% of us don't.

What this means is that my alternator tries to keep charging the truck battery, all the time, regardless of if there is a camper on the truck or not. So, the life of that battery is way less than it could be. Am I going to worry about that? Nope.

Will the solar panel on the roof try to keep charging the truck battery too, even when it is fully charged? Likely, but again, not much I can do about it except manually disconnect with the remote switch on the ACR.

Will my solar panels and charger do a super job of keeping my much more expensive house batteries in good shape? Yup!
 
Herve said:
I read in this thread that the Blue Sea ACR is superior to the Sure Power 1314A.

My 2011 Hawk came with the IBS-DBR:
http://ibs-tech.ch/en/products/dual-battery-system/ibs-dbr-dualbatt-relay.html
I added a switch for the link so I could (in theory, not tested) trickle charge my truck battery if it was discharged and that way start my truck after some time.
I do not have a trimetric or similar monitoring tool but it seems that my house batteries are not charging much from the alternator (Toyota Tundra 2011 with factory tow package 150 amp alternator amd FWC installed wiring to the camper).

Question: would replacing the IBS-DBR with the Blue Sea ACR provide any benefits beside the manual control switch?
Click to expand...
Herve, the bigger problem than your IBS relay. Toyota alternators don't put out a high enough voltage for most camper battery systems, especially for remotely charging the camper battery over the skinny wires normally installed.

Solutions include:

1) Much bigger wires
2) C-TEK or similar 12V to 12V booster.

Several folks on this forum are using the C-TEK and liking it.

I am lucky in that my alternator has a very high voltage output (probably cooking my poor truck battery) and I have heavy 2g wire from the alternator to the camper batteries, so I can easily charge the camper batteries with a couple of hours of driving.
 
Vic,

"What this means is that my alternator tries to keep charging the truck battery, all the time, regardless of if there is a camper on the truck or not. So, the life of that battery is way less than it could be."

Agreed!

"Will the solar panel on the roof try to keep charging the truck battery too, even when it is fully charged? Likely, but again, not much I can do about it except manually disconnect with the remote switch on the ACR.

Will my solar panels and charger do a super job of keeping my much more expensive house batteries in good shape? Yup! "

Exactly!


Edit: for clarity the following was simply a statement of acknowledgement that my detailed style of writing sometimes does not accurately convey what I am intending to accomplish, although reading it now I think it could be interpreted as snarky or condescending - most assuredly that was not the intent. ;-)

Perhaps I did not make it clear that my comments were primarily intended to inform those who do not understand the charging needs of batteries and simply rely on the automatic system of charging that they have (whatever it might be), particularly those who do not have solar to properly charge those expensive deep cycle AGM battery banks. I have read many posts on various sites from people complaining that their expensive batteries failed prematurely so I am just trying to help inform. Hopefully I am not off track.

In the end we each have to decide if this is something we are going to worry about and try to remedy or not. ;-)

Regards,

Craig
 
Craig...

I think the Blue Sea ACR will handle various battery types, at the same time. It is merely an electrical switch.

[SIZE=11pt]Bill,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Thank you for the question. The ACR is basically a switch, an automatic one but just a switch. It will connect any two batteries together. So charge control or regulation is still up to the charging source. For example your alternator will have a regulator which will be able to handle the charging for both batteries.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Please ask if you have any additional questions.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Best Regards,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Kevin Patterson[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Blue Sea Systems[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Technical Support Specialist[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]ABYC Certified Electrician[/SIZE]
 
ckent323 said:
Perhaps I did not make it clear that my comments were primarily intended to inform those who do not understand the charging needs of batteries and simply rely on the automatic system of charging that they have (whatever it might be), particularly those who do not have solar to properly charge those expensive deep cycle AGM battery banks. I have read many posts on various sites from people complaining that their expensive batteries failed prematurely so I am just trying to help inform. Hopefully I am not off track.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, one needs to ensure one's battery charge rates, under and over-voltage protection are compatible with the switch.

Second, many new "high-tech" batteries have digital controllers to protect the battery, such as Optima Blue Tops. My Blue Tops went in the camper when it was brand new, 4/15/2015. And the batteries are still in excellent condition in-so-far as charging and providing electrical power.

But, I put the camper batteries on shore power once a week to ensure I condition the batteries through all 3 stages, Bulk, Absorption and Float. A truck alternator or solar will is not the same as shore power; I pretty sure Stage 1, Bulk, will not activate using truck battery/alternator or solar. Shore power uses the 30 amp power converter. Since I am seeing all 3 stages of charging on the camper batteries, I assume the power converter has charge management logic. Most power converters have such logic.
 
Bill,

At risk of belaboring the issue, I'm not sure you understood my comments.

"...the Blue Sea ACR will handle various battery types, at the same time. It is merely an electrical switch"

"The ACR is basically a switch, an automatic one but just a switch. It will connect any two batteries together. So charge control or regulation is still up to the charging source. For example your alternator will have a regulator which will be able to handle the charging for both batteries."

Agreed, no argument.

My whole point has been that different type batteries have different voltage needs (during charging stages) and that these relays can only supply the same voltage to all batteries they are connected to.

If there are different batteries of different chemistrys the differing needs necessary to maximize the life of both (or all) of the connected batteries is not being met because there is only one single voltage present. I have simply been trying to point that out and one may want to do something about that (or not). Indeed,I don't have any hard data to say how big an issue this is since the issue is highly variable depending on the specific use conditions which differ from user to user.

I had an expensive, quality, AGM battery die pre-maturely, I have read a number of accounts by people who had the same thing happen. I am convinced these problems are due to improper charging. Maybe overcharging, maybe undercharging.

My house battery bank cost $600 and I am going to do the best job I can do to understand how to maximize their life and then in as cost effective way as possible take measures to accomplish that. I have simply been trying to communicate what I have learned and what I am doing.

I hope folks reading understand that I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything although I do make recommendations based on my best understanding (with links to references) to help others who want to understand and think about this.

;-)

Regards,
Craig
 
Advmoto18 said:
But, I put the camper batteries on shore power once a week to ensure I condition the batteries through all 3 stages, Bulk, Absorption and Float. A truck alternator or solar will is not the same as shore power; I pretty sure Stage 1, Bulk, will not activate using truck battery/alternator or solar. Shore power uses the 30 amp power converter. Since I am seeing all 3 stages of charging on the camper batteries, I assume the power converter has charge management logic. Most power converters have such logic.
Click to expand...
The better solar controllers such as the Trimetric and Victron types I am familiar with most certainly do have all the necessary logic to ensure the camper batteries are charged optimally. My Victron 75/15 is a lot smarter (and adjustable) than an IOTA, even with the IQ4.

In my rig, the alternator (it puts out up to 15.5V when cold out) can send 80+ A to my camper batteries. When I see that the batteries are getting close to 95% SOC, I manually disconnect them from the alternator and let the solar panels do the job of finishing them off right, which includes things like compensating for temperature, and determining if they are actually full up by measureing the "tail current"

That said, I also have a NOCO Genius 7200 for when I want to top off using shore power, but it is no where near as smart as my solar controller.
 
Vic Harder said:
Herve, the bigger problem than your IBS relay. Toyota alternators don't put out a high enough voltage for most camper battery systems, especially for remotely charging the camper battery over the skinny wires normally installed.

Solutions include:

1) Much bigger wires
2) C-TEK or similar 12V to 12V booster.

Several folks on this forum are using the C-TEK and liking it.

I am lucky in that my alternator has a very high voltage output (probably cooking my poor truck battery) and I have heavy 2g wire from the alternator to the camper batteries, so I can easily charge the camper batteries with a couple of hours of driving.
Click to expand...
The C-TEK 250SA + Smartpass 120 combo looks great, and it would even replace my solar controller. But I think it's more work to install than I'm willing to stomach.

Crazy(?) idea: what about having a DC to AC inverter on the truck battery / alternator and feeding that into the camper IOTA DLS-30 / IQ4 Smart Charge Controller? And somehow have it connected only when the alternator is running so it doesn't discharge the truck battery.

I think I'm going to start with adding a Victron BMV 712 and monitor my energy consumption.
 
ckent323 said:
At risk of belaboring the issue, I'm not sure you understood my comments.
Click to expand...
Thanks for clearing the clouds for me Craig....

You were absolutely correct in that I was not following your train of thought. Now I understand what you are alluding too!
 
Vic Harder said:
The better solar controllers such as the Trimetric and Victron types I am familiar with most certainly do have all the necessary logic to ensure the camper batteries are charged optimally. My Victron 75/15 is a lot smarter (and adjustable) than an IOTA, even with the IQ4.

In my rig, the alternator (it puts out up to 15.5V when cold out) can send 80+ A to my camper batteries. When I see that the batteries are getting close to 95% SOC, I manually disconnect them from the alternator and let the solar panels do the job of finishing them off right, which includes things like compensating for temperature, and determining if they are actually full up by measureing the "tail current"

That said, I also have a NOCO Genius 7200 for when I want to top off using shore power, but it is no where near as smart as my solar controller.
Click to expand...
Vic...

I concur with all you noted...

I was thinking more along the line a camper equipped by the factory. Thankfully, folks at the FWC "home office" listened to owners and now install a better switch for charging camper batteries. Too bad a "smart" digital solar controller capable of enabling all three charging stages isn't offered by the factory. Given the up-charge for solar, most of us that choose this option would likely choose a full logic, "smart" controller as well.

Bottom line to ensure optimum charging and longevity, is to put your camper batteries through all three stages weekly and try to keep them fully charged when possible.
 
Bill,

Glad I was able to untangle the words around my thinking sufficiently. ;-)

Thanks for letting me know.

BTW: I was not aware that some batteries have built in charge controllers. If they can do that cost competitively it makes sense.

Craig
 
Advmoto18 said:
Vic...

I concur with all you noted...

I was thinking more along the line a camper equipped by the factory. Thankfully, folks at the FWC "home office" listened to owners and now install a better switch for charging camper batteries. Too bad a "smart" digital solar controller capable of enabling all three charging stages isn't offered by the factory. Given the up-charge for solar, most of us that choose this option would likely choose a full logic, "smart" controller as well.

Bottom line to ensure optimum charging and longevity, is to put your camper batteries through all three stages weekly and try to keep them fully charged when possible.
Click to expand...
The factory ZAMP controller may well be very smart. I am not familiar with it though, so didn't include that in my comments.
 
Vic Harder said:
Herve, the bigger problem than your IBS relay. Toyota alternators don't put out a high enough voltage for most camper battery systems, especially for remotely charging the camper battery over the skinny wires normally installed.

Solutions include:

1) Much bigger wires
2) C-TEK or similar 12V to 12V booster.

Several folks on this forum are using the C-TEK and liking it.

I am lucky in that my alternator has a very high voltage output (probably cooking my poor truck battery) and I have heavy 2g wire from the alternator to the camper batteries, so I can easily charge the camper batteries with a couple of hours of driving.
Click to expand...
If I buy the C-TEK D250SA without the SMARTPASS and install it near the camper batteries, I don't have to upgrade the wires from the truck to the camper, right?

It looks like FWC used 10 AWG cables and the D250SA manual says that's fine for up to 5 meters: https://tinyurl.com/d250sa-manual

If my Tundra alternator produces 13.5V and there is 0.7V voltage drop to the D250SA alternator input, it will receive only 12.8V but it should do its job and bump up the voltage to the camper batteries located next to it.

I won't be able to jump the starter battery or trickle charge it if I don't have the SMARTPASS and bigger wires but I can always use jumper cables in that rare case (so far had to do this twice in 7 years).

My batteries (in parallel) want 8A-35A charging current each so 16A-70A total. I'll be limited to 20A when charging from the alternator but that's already better than what I get from the solar panel.

Sounds right?

I was re-reading part of the "I need more power Scotty!" thread and found some concerns about the quality of the MPPT controller in the D250S (see page 2). In practice, are you all happy with its MPPT performance?

(BTW I have AGM batteries for both the truck and the starter battery).

Cheers,

Herve
 
That sounds like a workable solution Herve, within the limits you mention. Like mentioned in the Scotty thread, the Ctek isn't adjustable for individual battery specs, but you can set it for AGM or FLA.... Check what your battery spec sheet says it wants for absorb and float. If it's close to what the Ctek puts out, use those 20A it will give you and be happy!
 
Vic Harder said:
That sounds like a workable solution Herve, within the limits you mention. Like mentioned in the Scotty thread, the Ctek isn't adjustable for individual battery specs, but you can set it for AGM or FLA.... Check what your battery spec sheet says it wants for absorb and float. If it's close to what the Ctek puts out, use those 20A it will give you and be happy!
Click to expand...
Great.
Just looked at the D250SA specs and both the float and absorption voltages are within specs of my batteries.
On the other hand, it says "Conventional alternator cut-in >13.1V, for 5 sec".
Between the low voltage of the Tundra alternator and the wires voltage drop. I'll have to check that first! Installing my new Victron BMV 712 :)
 
Stalking Light said:
When I had the 1314a in my FWC it would engage and then immediately disengage when the house battery voltage was low and I had to charge the house batteries with either solar or shore power to get the voltage back up before I could get any charge from the alternator. I replaced it with an ACR and it will charge the house battery at a lower voltage, plus it allows my solar to charge the truck battery when the house battery is charged. I'm happy with the swap. FWIW
Click to expand...
Which model ACR did you install? I'm thinking about swapping out my 1314A for a Blue Sea 7611, not sure if that will allow solar charging of the truck/engine battery once the aux battery is fully charged.
 
radarcontact said:
Which model ACR did you install? I'm thinking about swapping out my 1314A for a Blue Sea 7611, not sure if that will allow solar charging of the truck/engine battery once the aux battery is fully charged.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, Stalking Light has left this mortal coil, but post #29 on page 3 indicates that he installed the 7622.

"DrJ, I went ahead and got the BlueSea 7622. I'm assuming I can just cap off the switch wires if I want to install it without the switch and then install the switch later? I haven't decided yet where I want to locate the switch but would like to get the SurePower replaced before Expo East."

He and his magnificant photographs are sorely mised.

Paul
 
PaulT said:
Unfortunately, Stalking Light has left this mortal plain, but post #29 on page 3 indicates that he installed the 7622.

"DrJ, I went ahead and got the BlueSea 7622. I'm assuming I can just cap off the switch wires if I want to install it without the switch and then install the switch later? I haven't decided yet where I want to locate the switch but would like to get the SurePower replaced before Expo East."

He and his magnificant photographs are sorely mised.

Paul
Click to expand...
Thanks for letting me know, Paul. Sorry to hear that....
 
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