34 replies to this topic

[LuckyDan]

“And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”. Friedrich Nietzsche

I’ll start with I certainly understand Teledork’s concerns. While her area has always been popular, the past was nothing compared to now. Foy’s Montana is in a similar boat. Heck, I, as probably everyone here is in a similar boat. As I previously stated these topics are interesting earlier in this, I share the following:

The idea of fee for access is mentioned as a remedy, that fee is or could be a detriment or the start of cascading detriment and we already pay fees for the same or similar so another is within the realm of reasonability, (I think that’s a word?).

We as consumers of the natural world and the public domain in this Country are charged fees to access all, or parts of it. The problem with the expectations in my opinion is those fees are not universal. For example, I now pay a fee to access 19 trailheads in the Central Cascades and they are limited in availability. The fee is new this year, (Okay not exactly, the original launch date was postponed so stop typing). I can go across the way to the Blue Mtns and hike a BUNCH of trails and access A LOT of various Wildernesses for no fee at all. Some trailheads don’t even have sign in boxes. There are several venues across the PNW that my Forest Pass won’t gain me access to as they are under Concessionaire Contract, thus I pay their fee. The point is The state/USFS Region where Paul T and I live, we have a lot available that access costs us nothing to little, and access is currently unregulated or very minimally regulated. In other States people may pay more and may be regulated. I can’t type for Paul, but I for one am concerned about paying more, dubious what that more gets me or anyone, and being further limited. Can that limit be argued as minimal or for the greater good? Certainly.

This brings me to the second point. The idea as I understand it, is that a fee will get more and/or better enforcement. Under the current fee structure charged in the PNW by Region 6 of the Forest Service as the example, little or no monies collected go toward hard, (Law) enforcement. What may be spent in soft (employee contact) enforcement is unclear, I’ll offer not a lot or enough. Based on that, I don’t know another fee will change that. The following link offers the breakdown, scroll toward the bottom and you be the judge.

In closing, what limiting access will do, (The cascading detriment) is disperse those who seek access to the public domain elsewhere, as in other National Forests, BLM lands and so on. For example Gone used the Deschutes River Example. It is highly regulated below Pelton Dam and has a fairly robust infrastructure to support it. When the permit system went into full effect in the 80’s, the shift in use to other rivers within a couple years was significant within their respective seasons. So everyone be prepared to share that you may not need to now, and be ready to travel more and schedule more as what may be in your back yard, may not be readily accessible to you. I’ll go out on a limb and offer that some on here post have travels to far flung places because their respective home turf is over run, over used, trashed and so on. Finally for those who think this isn’t an issue for me, my area or my favorite place; I’ll offer that it’s just not an issue for you YET.

https://www.fs.usda....26999#deschutes

[teledork]

" Under the current fee structure charged in the PNW by Region 6 of the Forest Service as the example, little or no monies collected go toward hard, (Law) enforcement. What may be spent in soft (employee contact) enforcement is unclear, I’ll offer not a lot or enough."

Lucky Dan

 

And that is what needs to be changed.  Fees need to be allocated for enforcement. We found out there was no FS law enforcement in this area when someone called the FS to report an illegal campfire shortly after the first of two fire evacuations in this town. I also believe county and municipal departments of tourism should be defunded or required to help pay for enforcement and clean up. As I have said before, county offices of  tourism (and the businesses that thrive on it) are externalizing the costs of protecting from and cleaning up after dispersed campers who do not pay any kind of Transient Occupancy Tax. 

 

I also feel the need to clarify that I am not suggesting that a fee or license alone will solve everything but it has become abundantly clear that stupidity and sociopathy needs to be more painful for those self-entitled folks who think they are so special that the WELL POSTED rules do not apply to them. 

[Mighty Dodge Ram]

Agreed with concerns re: pesky fees, limited access, etc. I’ll share an extreme example that, I feel, has worked for its intended goal. (I thought I had already written about this but maybe not)

 

El Mirage OHV is a dry lakebed just west of Victorville and east of Palmdale down here in the upper Mojave. Six times a year it’s used for land speed trials associated with Bonneville; this has been going on since the late 40s. It’s also used for motorcycles, land sailing, model rocket launches, R/C airplanes, light and ultralight aircraft...truly mixed use. In the 25+ years we’d been attending, we watched those speed weekends turn into a zoo with uncontrolled entrance, uncontrolled speed off the track, open drunkenness while operating vehicles (of all kinds and of dubious condition), the burning of pallets with attendant nails leftover, BLM officers understaffed/overworked trying their best to cover all the shenanigans, late night ambulance runs evacuating injured party idiots (including chopper evacs)...you get the idea.

 

In response, BLM did the following several years ago: closed off access to the lakebed except through one point, instituted a $15/day or $30/week fee, banned the burning of pallets, conspicuously posted rules/regs at the entrance and on handouts, etc. The result: greatly diminished crowds, virtually no out of control antics, I hardly ever see BLM rangers having to constantly patrol the activities (I also see fewer rangers), in general a much safer & sane experience for all. A night and day change...for the better. 
 

My opinion: the fee in and of itself has dissuaded those with the “I have the ‘right’ to do anything I please, this is the desert, I ain’t paying a fee, nobody is going to tell me what to do” crowd. This may sound a bit elitist on my part and is an extreme example, but with such a populous state and so much natural beauty to offer, I’m not sure what else would work...and maybe this wouldn’t. But doing nothing is, IMHO, not an option. 
 

Addendum: it’s refreshing to share this dialogue on a site with such respectful members. We all know it’s not always this way elsewhere. 

[ski3pin]

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In response, BLM did the following several years ago: closed off access to the lakebed except through one point, instituted a $15/day or $30/week fee, banned the burning of pallets, conspicuously posted rules/regs at the entrance and on handouts, etc. The result: greatly diminished crowds, virtually no out of control antics, I hardly ever see BLM rangers having to constantly patrol the activities (I also see fewer rangers), in general a much safer & sane experience for all. A night and day change...for the better. 
 

My opinion: the fee in and of itself has dissuaded those with the “I have the ‘right’ to do anything I please, this is the desert, I ain’t paying a fee, nobody is going to tell me what to do” crowd. This may sound a bit elitist on my part and is an extreme example, but with such a populous state and so much natural beauty to offer, I’m not sure what else would work...and maybe this wouldn’t. But doing nothing is, IMHO, not an option. 
 

Addendum: it’s refreshing to share this dialogue on a site with such respectful members. We all know it’s not always this way elsewhere. 

MDR, from a truly personal perspective, thank you so much for posting this! For six years I served on the Federal Recreation Resource Advisory Committee - appointed by the Secretary of Agriculture - that all fee proposals in Region 5 came before. I remember El Mirage very well, the presentations, the testimony, the public comments. We okayed the fee proposal. I voted in favor. To hear this many years later, that it has been a success and worked like we hoped is great to hear. Thanks MDR, for making my day.

 

Bottom line, in targeted instances fees really can make a difference. Yes, we all pay taxes. We hear this all the time. But, if we are serious about making positive changes, fees help make a real difference and bring needed improvements. Taxes go into the general fund. The fees we approved were mandated by law to be used where the fees were collected.

 

On a side note, Julie and I knew several USFS EMT's who volunteered to work at both El Mirage and Imperial Dunes on big winter holiday weekends. They did it for training - "We see more trauma in a weekend than we see all year up here!"

[Foy]

Notwithstanding my somewhat skeptical comments about fees, permits, etc possibly not having enough of an impact to modify behaviors of individuals with bad intent, MDR's empirical observations about El Mirage have reminded me of the situation surrounding the imposition of fees, permits, and  travel  restrictions on National Park System lands right here in North Carolina.  Around 12-15 years ago, the Audubon Society led a coalition seeking closure of the beaches within the Cape Hatteras National Seashore to all beach driving.  The furor was overwhelming, not just from we surf fishermen who had for decades chased schools of bluefish and striped bass up and down the beach in our "beach buggys" but also from the businesses selling tackle, bait, beer and ice, restaurants, and motels.  A great number of summertime beachgoers (surf fishing is a fall and winter sport) strongly objected to the closures as well as a few birders who enjoyed the beach driving in proximity to the Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge.  The Audubons' opposition to beach driving was expressed as relating mostly to protection for nesting sites for a single species and that, in my own opinion, weakened their position greatly.  There had been some relatively minor problems with sea turtle nesting, litter, human wastes, and drunkenness, but to the greatest extent, the surf fishermen were a self-policing bunch. Then and now, the CHNS was one of the only, and very much the largest, area of beach driving available on the entire Atlantic Coast.

 

The outcome was that a permit system was initiated requiring a $50 fee for a 10 day permit or a $120 annual pass.  Access points which had previously been "all in a line" from Oregon Inlet down to Cape Point were cut up such that drivers could not run the beach for miles and miles without having to double back to the "ramps" at the access points, where plank paths carried trucks over the dune.  Permit purchasers also had to watch a video about nesting sites, access rules and regs, etc.  And at the time, that was the biggest remaining sticking point--the video had to be viewed in person at the CHNS visitor center during daytime hours. 

 

By the time all of the above was settled upon and initiated, the surf fishing conditions had changed and I was pretty much done spending a week at a time catching very few blues and rockfish (the Virginia and NC term for striped bass). As such, I have yet to use the permit system at CHNS. But from what I've read on Intertube forums and social media, the system is pretty well accepted and it still  provides most of the kinds of access we'd been accustomed to and at most of the times of year we really wanted it.  The summertime beachgoers took it in the shorts due to wider range restrictions during sea turtle nesting periods, but they were mostly Yankees from NY and NJ, so tough luck for them  .  The self-policing ethos among the surf fishermen apparently remains strong, and some of the old-times are begrudgingly happy to not be sharing the beaches with hordes of newbies in their crossover SUVs.getting stuck everywhere. 

 

Foy

[Mighty Dodge Ram]

On a side note, Julie and I knew several USFS EMT's who volunteered to work at both El Mirage and Imperial Dunes on big winter holiday weekends. They did it for training - "We see more trauma in a weekend than we see all year up here!"

 
ski3pin: Glad I made you smile! Yup...absolute carnage. Open Jeep rollovers in the dark, campers in ground rents being run over at 3am, severe burns from campfires being stoked with gasoline or worse, race fuel. Thank you for your work with FRRAC; I’ll bet you were the target of all kinds of nasty vitriol, I know we saw and heard it out there.

 

Foy: We have a similar situation out here on the Central Coast (CA) at Pismo/Oceano Dunes. Not so much with fishermen but with offroad vehicles. Nobody is happy...environmental groups think we’re not doing enough, recreational groups think we’re overreaching. 
 

I love my home state...there’s just too many of us. And the current political/cultural atmosphere of screaming at each other doesn’t allow us to make any kind of salient, pragmatic progress let alone finding common ground from seemingly polarized principled positions.

[Wandering Sagebrush]

<snip>

 

On a side note, Julie and I knew several USFS EMT's who volunteered to work at both El Mirage and Imperial Dunes on big winter holiday weekends. They did it for training - "We see more trauma in a weekend than we see all year up here!"

One of my friends was an ER doc in Eugene, which is near the Oregon Dunes.   He referred to ATVs and Sand Buggies as “Donor Cycles.”

[DavidGraves]

I am also glad to see the awareness here on WTW about P L A ( Public Lands Abuse).

 

In my home area local county officials recently imposed access fees to assorted boat ramps.

 

They think imposing a fee will limit crowds.

 

They think a fee will eliminate trash.

 

They think a fee will alter human behavior.

 

Meanwhile they spend millions yearly to promote more tourism.

 

David Graves

[ski3pin]

and the hits keep coming...............

 

[Foy]

  I love my home state...there’s just too many of us. And the current political/cultural atmosphere of screaming at each other doesn’t allow us to make any kind of salient, pragmatic progress let alone finding common ground from seemingly polarized principled positions.

 Reminds me of what our younger son said after a few months of being stationed at the Navy Seabee base at Port Hueneme, CA in 2007-2008, and again in 2013-2014:

 

• So, son, how do you like California?

 

• I love California, it's really beautiful and a ton of fun, but I hate Californians.

 

• What do you mean?  Please explain.

 

• There's too effing many of 'em, everywhere I go there's a freakin' million of 'em, and they treat us (junior enlisteds) like s**t.  

 

The aging earth scientist in me tells me that California's population has exceeded the carrying capacity of its territory and there is little to nothing that can be done to recover. Too many people is simply too many people.

 

Foy