68 replies to this topic

[Advmoto18]

Why do you want to install a winch on the rear?

 

As one who has been winching for 40+ years, I will still defer to Jonathan Hansen's advice.  I've been in enough predicaments over the decades, attended enough Overland Expos and watched Land Rover and other experts give classes on winching, to conclude, if you need a rear winch to recover yourself, you are probably in terrain where you should not be the lone vehicle.  In terrain where you need to be pulled out rearward, a second vehicle (with a front mounted winch) is optimum to perform your recovery.  

 

The OEM wiring harness for my Warn 16.5S is 2 gauge.  And the Warn harness is 6' in length.  Warn doesn't even offer a gauge recommendation for lengths in excess of 6'.  I suspect too much amperage drop in longer lengths which is not good for a HD electric motor.

 

One of the hardest concepts of overlanding to learn...knowing when to turn around BEFORE it is too late and recovery becomes very problematic.  And I don't think anyone gets this concept down 100%.  The more techniques you learn, the more experience you gain only seems to push you further down that tough, technical trail.

 

I have a Trail Ready (Idaho made) Base front bumper on  my Super Duty.

Edited by Advmoto18, 08 September 2017 - 12:30 PM.

[Wallowa]

Why do you want to install a winch on the rear?

 

As one who has been winching for 40+ years, I will still defer to Jonathan Hansen's advice.  I've been in enough predicaments over the decades, attended enough Overland Expos and watched Land Rover and other experts give classes on winching, to conclude, if you need a rear winch to recover yourself, you are probably in terrain where you should not be the lone vehicle.  In terrain where you need to be pulled out rearward, a second vehicle (with a front mounted winch) is optimum to perform your recovery.  

 

The OEM wiring harness for my Warn 16.5S is 2 gauge.  And the Warn harness is 6' in length.  Warn doesn't even offer a gauge recommendation for lengths in excess of 6'.  I suspect too much amperage drop in longer lengths which is not good for a HD electric motor.

 

One of the hardest concepts of overlanding to learn...knowing when to turn around BEFORE it is too late and recovery becomes very problematic.  And I don't think anyone gets this concept down 100%.  The more techniques you learn, the more experience you gain only seems to push you further down that tough, technical trail.

 

I have a Trail Ready (Idaho made) Base front bumper on  my Super Duty.

 

 

Don't disagree with most of what you stated.  But you are preaching to the choir.  For many decades [6+] I have  evaluated and balanced risks in my adventures and most often they are done solo over extended periods [Sea kayaking, free diving, climbing, back country skiing and off road motorcycle and truck].  Two observations:  Solo adventures are very rich in experiences that can not be duplicated in a group and secondly you must fully assume the risks while preparing for as many as you can.  

 

In serious situations indeed knowing when to turn back is critical; or as I say:  "If there is any doubt, there is no doubt".  But misjudgments happen.

 

Why should you have a rear and front recovery system....because you may need extraction in either direction.  The unexpected or unknown can always "stop you right there". Not complicated and self-rescue is the rule.  However carrying self-rescue gear or traveling in a group can foster poor judgment and seduce you into thinking "I can handle anything" until you can't.

 

I agree that Warn has a paucity of information but they sell 20 and 24 foot cables for use with their winches that are 2 gauge.  I will confirm gauge size with them once more but over the years any issues with a too small of a cable would seem to be evident and have created problems, I have not heard of any.  Proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

Winches are new territory for me and I am learning as I go.  Having a winch could be an overkill or a life saver; time will tell.

 

All this is just my opinions, thoughts and experiences; and, I could be wrong. 

 

Phil

Edited by Wallowa, 08 September 2017 - 02:49 PM.

[Advmoto18]

Phil

 

You will not find a bigger proponent and advocate for personal responsibility and self-reliance than me.  But, when poor decisions result in others being summoned and exposed to danger to save you is altogether a different matter.  

 

I submit it is better to perform a straight-line pull forward to clear the obstacle and turn around.  If that is not feasible, then perhaps it is time to seek an additional recovery vehicle.

 

Needing a winch on the rear of your truck puts you in the less than 1% of 1% who venture into areas where you would need self extraction with a rear winch.  Further, you are almost committed to a straight-line pull with a rear winch since you can't turn the rear wheels.  Off-line pulls are manageable, but, put tremendous stress on the winch and the vehicle.  Not to mention less winching power with off-line pulls.  Further winch bumpers are not designed to take asymmetric loading when you start winching 10-20 degrees off-line.

 

I doubt any of us here have the overlanding experience level of the Wescott's.  And I recall Gary once being asked why he didn't have a rear winch.  And his comment was if he needed a rear winch, he made a poor decision much, much earlier.  

 

My Warn 16.5S is probably my 12th Warn winch.  Warn does not recommend exceeding the length of their wiring harness due to voltage drop.  I incorrectly stated amps in my earlier post, the issue is voltage drop in longer wire runs. 

 

You can only achieve max rated pull of the winch when you are on the last 10 wraps or so on the drum.  Further, you only achieve max rated voltage of the winch's motor when you use the Warn electrical harness.  Exceed that length with 2 GA wire and you will have voltage drop.

 

A winch is just another tool in the proverbial tool bag.  But a tool that takes many overlanders down the  poor decision-making path simply because they have a winch.  Or worse, get hurt, hurt some else or damage equipment because of a lack of knowledge and experience.  Winching is inherently very dangerous and ALL safety precautions MUST be adhered too.  No shortcuts.   And, no tool will overcome poor decision-making.  

 

As a former military fighter pilot and retired airline captain, I do not believe sound risk management is aligned with poor decision making based on final outcome.  Risk management and taking risks beyond what you can manage is not risk management.  

 

Case in point...the Delta flight that flew from JFK to SJU Wednesday before Irma hit.  Delta is playing that up in the media, but, nearly every professional airline pilot is calling it a stupid marketing ploy to risk that many souls.  This was a horrible dispatch decision that far exceeded any airline's risk management program.  Just because they safely completed the round trip flight without incident doesn't make the decision to go a good one.

 

And I absolutely agree, if there is any doubt, even the slightest, there is no doubt, turn around!

 

And winching can be safe and is a very effective tool to possess.  But very unforgiving if not treated with the utmost respect.

 

Bill

Edited by Advmoto18, 08 September 2017 - 04:06 PM.

[Wallowa]

Thanks Bill...good information and appreciated.  After I re-contact Warn concerning the requisite gauge wire needed for a rear connector I will post that info here..

 

Risk management does not mean absence of risk nor complete avoidance of negative out comes.  Poor judgment or unknown variables can always reach out and bite you.  Mr. Murphy is always lurking ready to pounce.  You do your best and then adapt to the reality presented.

 

One passing thought...What is wrong with having a rear and front winching capacity?  If not needed so be it; but just another arrow in the quiver if needed.  My 8S Multi Mount gives front and rear options without any that I see drawbacks.

 

Hey, I am learning and listening.

 

Phil 

[Wallowa]

Again all the information on this topic is of great help to me and appreciated.

 

Hi Ace, long time!

 

Yup, using receiver hitches to mount the winch does impose limits on pulling lbs and angle of pull...I see the Warn site only recommended 15 degrees from vertical and 45 degrees horizontal as acceptable limits...these sound reasonable..

 

Just called Warn and confirmed for the third time that they in fact only use 2 gauge for rear mounted winch connectors...their service rep said that the 2 gauge is used for all winches they make and out to 35 feet.....so I will stay with 2 gauge when I make my own leads.

 

Thanks to all, the advice and information is very valuable.  Hopefully I will never need the high-lift jack or winch!

 

Phil

Edited by Wallowa, 08 September 2017 - 04:29 PM.

[JHanson]

This thread has resulted in a lot of good information and thoughts!

 

To clear up some nomenclature: It’s generally accepted that a “wrap” refers to the line or cable completing one turn around the drum. A “layer” refers to one complete width of the drum covered in “wraps.” Thus manufacturers will tell you never to winch without at least five or six “wraps” of line in place on the bottom “layer.” And the axiom follows that a winch loses approximately ten percent of its power with each succeeding “layer” of line spooled on the drum.

 

I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a rear-mounted winch; the problem is that almost all rear-mounted winches are temporarily mounted via the receiver, and that can be a problem for the reasons stated earlier, along with the additional issue of power draw (and I agree with both of those who said 2-gauge cable is inadaquate). You could, as some have done, construct a permanent rear mount for a winch, and supply it with adequate power, but even then there are issues. Rear-mounted winches are right in the stream of filth flung up by the vehicle; it’s almost impossible to keep them clean. And on some (not all) trucks I’d be concerned about the integrity of the rear chassis section even with a proper mount. Older American trucks employed open-channel frames that are subject to twisting merely when driven on trails; the current (!) Toyota Tundra and Tacoma also employ open-channel frames in the rear, to my everlasting chagrin.

 

I'll just repeat that if you go with a receiver-mount winch, do everything possible to arrange a straight pull. Use a snatch block and rig a redirected pull if you have to, but make sure the line coming out of the winch is under no sideways strain. I disagree with Warn's endorsement of a 45º sideways pull; I would halve that at most.

Edited by JHanson, 08 September 2017 - 06:16 PM.

[Advmoto18]

 

Phil... the only way to learn is ask questions.  The only dumb question is the one you do not ask!

 

You can take Jonathan Hanson's advice to the bank!  I have learned more about safe and proper winching techniques the last 5 years at Overland Expo then the previous 40.  The previous 40 was simply go out and winch and hope for the best.

 

Luckily we didn't get hurt or kill someone back in the 70s because winching equipment was not nearly as safe back then.  But also, I am well, well past my NAFOD years.  What is NAFOD you ask?  NO APPARENT FEAR OF DEATH.  Life itself was a huge risk back in my NAFOD years!  LOL.

Edited by Advmoto18, 08 September 2017 - 08:34 PM.

[Wallowa]

NAFOD!  I love!  Like "IAI"  'I am immortal' which with me lasted way too long! ....I also have learned a lot listening to J.  

 

Currently looking for 1 gauge wire...pun intended...and not the Warn recommended 2 gauge; better safe than sorry.

 

Question:  Warn said not to use the truck frame for the ground wire at the rear of the truck....what is the collective experience on that?

 

I plan to run two cables but my buddy with the same winch [1 gauge] on his Tacoma grounded to the frame in the rear.

 

Phil

[craig333]

Sometimes we don't always have a chance to turn around. I once had the road collapse on me. A culvert had washed out but there was no visual indication there was anything wrong. One thing that has helped me a lot is simply walking. If it looks iffy get out and walk, look around and see whats down the road. One thing I really hate is backing up half a mile. Don't want to do that again. 

 

If I really want to see whats down the road I'll come back with the Jeep. It can turn around in places the truck just says nope.

[JHanson]

NAFOD: that is awesome. My trial-and-error first experiments with winching included simply wrapping the cable around a boulder and hooking it to itself.

 

Warn is correct regarding grounding to the frame—you should run a properly sized ground cable all the way back to the battery. Your friend's ground will be causing a loss of voltage in his winch.

Edited by JHanson, 09 September 2017 - 12:07 AM.