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#51 Wallowa

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 01:09 AM

Ok..riddle for me...all the 'quick connect/disconnect' Warn connectors are only rated to  a max of 178 amps but the Warn Zeon 8S winch data below shows a max of 413 amps is possible...what am I missing?  

 

40 feet of TEMco 1 gauge cable on order; now trying to sort out a compatible connector from the 1 gauge cable [Warn connectors go to a max of 2 gauge] to the connector on the winch...fun figuring all this out at least it will be when I actually do figure it out.. :D

 

Phil

 

 

Sorry for chart mess...

 

 

12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS

 

Line Pull    Lbs.(Kgs.)  Line Speed  FT./min(M/min.) Motor Current  Pull by layer   layer/Lbs(Kgs.)

                       0                              35 (12.8)                  63 amps                       1/8000 (3629)

                  2000 (910)                    17.2 (5.2)                167 amps                       2/6777 (3074)

                  4000 (1810)                  11.7 (3.6)                 255 amps                      3/5878 (2666)

                  6000 (2720)                    8.5 (2.6)                 335 amps                      4/5189 (2353)

                  8000 (3630)                    6.2 (1.9)                 413 amps

 

Above performance specs are based on first layer of drum


Edited by Wallowa, 09 September 2017 - 01:20 AM.

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#52 ntsqd

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 02:19 PM

Ampacity ratings can be absolute maximum, they can be some normal maximum with some Factor of Safety (FS) included. They can be based on DC current, they can be based on AC current, they can be determined inside of or outside of an engine bay (elevated temperature). For all we know that 175A rating was made based on 250°F ambient service conditions, DC, and with the Factor of Safety set at 10 to 1. Which means that he connector will safely carry way more current in more normal conditions.

This page says that the Anderson SB175 series connector is actually rated to 340 amps and accommodates wire from 10 ga. to 2/0:

https://www.anderson...oots/index.aspx

If the Series designation "SB175" is where whomever is getting the 175 Amp rating from, it's wrong. the difference between 340 A and 413 A isn't huge when you factor in that the 413A demand is short term and the 340A rating is continuous. A motor that draws 340 amps continuously will have an in-rush current that can easily be twice it's continuous demand. Yet it is rare that this in-rush current needs to be considered because the wiring components have enough FS to handle that short term higher current.

 

If the above connector is not what Warn is using then your two options are to change to the next larger Connector series that offers a contact  for your cable size. OR do a butt-splice to step down the cable size to work with existing connector. Keep in mind that it is "Amps over Distance" that is important in determining cable size. Not merely amps. A short section of appropriately sized smaller cable will not be a problem. Stepping-down is less than ideal from a cable flexibility perspective as well as from permitting as few conductor joints as possible for the most robust system.

 

Also keep in mind that the winch motor will only demand the amps necessary to meet the load. If the load is small then winch motor won't be working too hard and it won't require max amperage. (Monitoring this phenomenon is a key component to "Lights-out Manufacturing" using CNC machine tools.) Which is to say that sizing for max amps is the most robust solution, but depending on how often (& how long) max amps are demanded a smaller cable may be more appropriate for a system such as this.

 

I don't have many years of winching experiences. I have very few actually. However, this whole concept that winches are only for pulling you forward is a crock. The very same people who tell you that and also say "turn around before it gets beyond you." I think that just about the height of hypocrisy!!! Maybe the shortest way out of a situation IS forward, but maybe it is reversing out.

What if you've just got the front tires into something that wasn't what it seemed.Do you really want to drag the whole vehicle thru that, only to turn around and have to drag the whole vehicle thru it AGAIN to get out of there? If you can pull yourself backwards out of such an easy to encounter situation you just saved yourself a bunch of effort and time, not to mention wear and risk to the vehicle.

 

That said, the rear winching attachment method & structure needs to be up to the same task as would the front winch attaching method and structure. The primary stressor of a socket receiver mounted winch is going to be anything less than a straight pull. The quickest, easiest way I see to reduce that is to get some turn-buckles rated for the full winch load, and set up to be able to attach them between the winch cradle and the trailer hitch. They need to be attached to the winch cradle at the bumper side's outer corners, and they want to be splayed out at roughly a 45° angle towards the vehicle's frame rails. The turnbuckles should be of the clevis type only. Setting up to winch would include attaching both turnbuckles regardless of pull direction. Note that the turnbuckles should not be tensioned tight, but rather set such that they are tight only when it is a straight line pull and all of the slack is taken out of the cradle to hitch junction. The idea is not for the turnbuckle to take the direct winching load, but to take any bending load induced by a less than straight line pull. The nuances of setting this up should probably be another thread.


Edited by ntsqd, 09 September 2017 - 02:21 PM.

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Thom

Where does that road go?

#53 Wallowa

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 09:57 PM

More information needed;

 

I was told by Warn that 20 foot cables are sufficient to reach and wire in a connector on the back bumper of my '05 Access Cab Tundra. 

 

Hopefully that length is going to reach, since I ordered two 1 gauge cables in 20 foot lengths.  I did a mock-up with an extension cord and it is going to be close!  Of course I only did this after ordering the cables.  Slow down Phil, think it through.... <_<

 

Turning to the battery terminals...with the FWC and OEM leads on the battery I am out of room on the posts to attach the winch leads [4 in total] plus the ground clamp attached to battery post has a very thick OEM Toyota cables/loom hard wired [crimped] into that clamp.

 

Information on any and all sources and types of battery terminal clamps that I can put on the battery to accommodate all these wires is needed and appreciated.   Most puzzling is working around that OEM ground clamp; do not want to tear into it.    Please chime in!

 

Thanks,

 

Phil 

 

Ps...Is using a separate power strip/board an option?  Still need to deal with the hard wired  OEM ground.


Edited by Wallowa, 09 September 2017 - 10:01 PM.

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#54 2tallDA

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 10:37 PM

Sometimes we don't always have a chance to turn around. I once had the road collapse on me. A culvert had washed out but there was no visual indication there was anything wrong. One thing that has helped me a lot is simply walking. If it looks iffy get out and walk, look around and see whats down the road. One thing I really hate is backing up half a mile. Don't want to do that again. 

 

If I really want to see whats down the road I'll come back with the Jeep. It can turn around in places the truck just says nope.

That's an excellent point. Better to sink to your knees than have the truck go down.


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#55 ntsqd

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 02:34 AM

More information needed;


Turning to the battery terminals...with the FWC and OEM leads on the battery I am out of room on the posts to attach the winch leads [4 in total] plus the ground clamp attached to battery post has a very thick OEM Toyota cables/loom hard wired [crimped] into that clamp.

 

Information on any and all sources and types of battery terminal clamps that I can put on the battery to accommodate all these wires is needed and appreciated.   Most puzzling is working around that OEM ground clamp; do not want to tear into it.    Please chime in!

 

Thanks,

 

Phil 

 

Ps...Is using a separate power strip/board an option?  Still need to deal with the hard wired  OEM ground.

 

Answered your other post: http://www.wanderthe...e-3#entry179074


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Thom

Where does that road go?

#56 ottorogers

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 04:43 PM

I am looking for insight and opinions on front bumpers, winches and driving lights.  I have looked but can't seem to find a decent thread on the topic.

 

I drive a 2015 Tundra and have pretty much boiled my decision on a bumper down to an Expedition One with the pre-runner hoops .  I would like to consider ARB but am tired of waiting for them to come out with a bumper that will fit my truck.  Besides, Expedition One is offering 20% off on all their bumper orders through the end of July so I should move quickly!

 

  • Thoughts and opinions on bumper selection appreciated.  What do you have and why?
  • Considering Smittybilt winch-could wear out three before paying for the Warn
  • Lights-Expedition One offers PIAA and Baja Designs for my truck-anybody with experience with these brands-light up trails, failures, life expectancy, etc.  Looking at fogs for the ports and something on top-will accommodate up to 3 8" lights on top of bumper.

I am really having a hard time with the lights since I have never owned a truck with these types of lights.  The reviews and videos are spotty at best.

 

Give us your opinions, post pictures etc! Thanks!

I am also interested in this topic, I have a 2014 Tundra, and Alluminess, which would be my first choice, does not make products for the 2014 and beyond, which I find hard to understand, these are very popular trucks, but they told me on the phone they do not make much at all for 2014 and beyond. I am looking for a rear bumper with swing arm and storage boxes, so far I am dizzy searching the internet for anything at all, but nothing


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#57 Wallowa

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 05:42 PM

Otto's Quote:

"I am also interested in this topic, I have a 2014 Tundra, and Alluminess, which would be my first choice, does not make products for the 2014 and beyond, which I find hard to understand, these are very popular trucks, but they told me on the phone they do not make much at all for 2014 and beyond. I am looking for a rear bumper with swing arm and storage boxes, so far I am dizzy searching the internet for anything at all, but nothing"

 

 

I know this topic has been beaten to death...

 

I see the basic front Aluminess bumpers @ 85lbs and Expedition One @ 120 lbs...the cost for either is obscene..

 

My take....with our Tundra trucks we are really limited, or should be, to GVW vs what we load them up with...however in my opinion  we will never snap an axle or ruin the drive train if we do not abuse them but use them conservatively off-road...off-road is the key in evaluating the set-up for me, highway traffic is another kettle of fish..

 

My '05 Tundra Access cab has all the bells and whistles [winter package, towing package, rear sway bar, air bags...etc] never the less with my fully outfitted Hawk, supplies, extraction gear...the wet weight with 25 gals of fuel is significantly over what Toyota recommends...notwithstanding that, the combo handles very well off road and on pavement...will this decrease the life of my truck?  Not in my life time..

 

I went with Curt front receiver and WARN Zeon 8S Multi-Mount [100 lbs] to save weight and add versatility and felt it was better to go first tier [WARN] rather than suffer a failure or re-do in the future.  The way I drive off road will I ever need the winch?  Probably not, but the first time I have a blow down blocking my exit route or I screw up and muck it in or high center it...well, the winch will be a blessing and I do not have to turn to the High Lift jack and pray.

 

Look all this is my opinion with quite a lot of off road over the decades but only about 40K with Tundra and 8K with FWC set-up; I have not stayed at a Holiday Inns, nor am I any brand of expert! 

 

In the end it comes down to personal choice, hopefully with decisions based on the best information available.

 

Phil


Edited by Wallowa, 30 September 2017 - 07:35 PM.

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#58 ckent323

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 09:58 PM

Craig333,

 

During our 37 day trip while we were exploring n the in the Blue Mountains in Eastern Oregon we were driving up a 4WD road with the Dodge in 4WD when we came across a sketchy dirt track across the face of a pretty steep hillside that looked like it led over to a mine.  I decided to give it a go.  My wife was decidedly against it but rode along - she was willing to trust me (up to that point) as I have done a fair amount of off pavement driving in my life (not much with the camper on though).

 

The Dodge with camper on was tilting pretty seriously in a couple of spots.  Then about 3/4 of a mile in I reached a point of not being able to go forward due to a fallen tree (I walked in a ways first before trying the track but I did not go far enough to see the downed tree - DOH!  #1).  There was no place to turn around

 

I do not have a winch on the truck.

 

The wife was not pleased and said she was walking back to the main 4WD road we had turned off of.  She got out and started walking quite unhappy that I had terrified her (understandably).  She revealed that more than once that she had scary visions the whole time of the truck and camper rolling down the side of the mountain.  I was so excited about going over to the mine and so focused on driving once we started on the track that I really did not realize how scared she was - DOH! #2.

 

After really thinking things through I put the truck in reverse and very slowly backed out.  It was not exactly a straight road but the few curves were short and backing out, it turned out, really wasn't that tough, it just took patience and an easy throttle.  There were a couple of places where I got a little out of the track and the truck started tilting more so I stopped, pulled forward and carefully got back in the track. 

 

A winch would have done me no good unless I decided to try to pull the downed tree out of the track.

 

That is about the diciest place I have had the truck with the camper on.  I confess to being a bit concerned a couple of times at the tilt angle when driving in.  I also was a bit worried in a couple of soft spots about losing traction.

 

I have long thought about putting a winch on the truck.  I'm undecided at this juncture if it is worth the extra weight and cost.  I am pretty sure I will put a locker on the rear differential before I put on a winch (probably a manual locker).

 

 

 

Regards,

Craig


Edited by ckent323, 30 September 2017 - 10:14 PM.

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#59 Wallowa

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 10:20 PM

Craig333,

 

During our 37 day trip while we were exploring n the in the Blue Mountains in Eastern Oregon we were driving up a 4WD road with the Dodge in 4WD when we came across a sketchy dirt track across the face of a pretty steep hillside that looked like it led over to a mine.  I decided to give it a go.  My wife was decidedly against it but rode along - she was willing to trust me (up to that point) as I have done a fair amount of off pavement driving in my life (not much with the camper on though).

 

The Dodge with camper on was tilting pretty seriously in a couple of spots.  Then about 3/4 of a mile in I reached a point of not being able to go forward due to a fallen tree (I walked in a ways first before trying the track but I did not go far enough to see the downed tree - DOH!  #1).  There was no place to turn around

 

I do not have a winch on the truck.

 

The wife was not pleased and said she was walking back to the main 4WD road we had turned off of.  She got out and started walking quite unhappy that I had terrified her (understandably).  She revealed that more than once that she had scary visions the whole time of the truck and camper rolling down the side of the mountain.  I was so excited about going over to the mine and so focused on driving once we started on the track that I really did not realize how scared she was - DOH! #2.

 

After really thinking things through I put the truck in reverse and very slowly backed out.  It was not exactly a straight road but the few curves were short and backing out, it turned out, really wasn't that tough, it just took patience and an easy throttle.  There were a couple of places where I got a little out of the track and the truck started tilting more so I stopped, pulled forward and carefully got back in the track. 

 

A winch would have done me no good unless I decided to try to pull the downed tree out of the track.

 

That is about the diciest place I have had the truck with the camper on.  I confess to being a bit concerned a couple of times at the tilt angle when driving in.

 

I have long thought about putting a winch on the truck.  I'm undecided at this juncture if it is worth the extra weight and cost.  I am thinking locker on the rear differential before winch.

 

 

 

Regards,

Craig

 

 

Craig,

 

Great write-up.

 

Certainly for me those are definitely lessons to learn from, thanks.

 

As an aside...besides the winch I carry a 24" chain saw, broken down and stored with extra chain/oil/pre-mix in a 'sealed' HD garbage bag inside a duct taped RubberMaid container.  And I carry a really good full size axe.

 

Again, thanks for the re-play of your adventure.  Hope your Bride eventually forgave you!  

 

Phil


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#60 ntsqd

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 06:20 PM

As our CTD has a Dana 70 rear axle our local 4WD shop suggested the Dana limited slip rear diff. Ruben told me that I'd never spin a rear tire in the rig and I'd never feel it while driving on pavement (he knew I'd put 100k+ miles on a rear Detroit and hated most of it). He was mostly right. Never, ever felt it when the truck rode on the GY Dura-Tracs, now feel it in tight turns with the Yoko's. Have never known it to spin a tire. Slip the inside tire yes, but never spin one.

 

Front axle is still open and I debate whether or not to add a TAD to it or not. So far we've never needed it and I've gone places with the truck that I probably shouldn't have.


Edited by ntsqd, 02 October 2017 - 06:21 PM.

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Thom

Where does that road go?





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