Heating at Altitude

Hey All!,
Well, Im back. after selling my 02 FWC I saw a new 2021 Fleet model with the side dinette and had to get it. I currently work remote and ski at Alta and Snowbird in Utah. My dream office!

So, I am at my wits end: after settling in and setting up my workstation the other day, first week with the camper on the tacoma, I fired up the furnace and connected to the intrawebs through my phone. Thinking all was well, I had a good connection and noone in the zoom meeting was the wiser thanks to my fake background (insert evil laugh here).
then ....WOMP WOMP. furnace was blowing cold air. Alta parking lot is at about 8600 feet.
Now, many of you are saying "yeah duh, propane doesn't work well at altitude"

However, I'm a dummy so bear with me.

So, I have a power inverter for the laptop so I can work:

A BMK 200W Car Power Inverter DC 12V to 110V AC Car Inverter
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079HPZ9JY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So, just to make sure I went down the canyon and checked the furnace in SLC (About 5600 feet). Works great. perfect. just what I wanted. Oh, thin air how you mock me!

I was like "ok, I am installing an Overlander Solar kit. I can use an electric heater during the day and not worry about the power draw too much". And i thought, "I probably won't ever camp at altitude above 7K (Big Cottonwood and Little Cottonwood Canyons in Utah are both watersheds and no camping allowed) so an electric heater during the day should be fine. "

Did the googles, found the best rated one :

A Vornado MVH Vortex Heater.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MB4BQ0G?linkCode=ogi&tag=pop-lift-20&ascsubtag=%5Bartid%7C10060.g.34209204%5Bsrc%7Carb_ga_pop_d_bm_g34209204%5Bch%7Cc25161fcdd5c927d2640e9d0b7b16c3b%5Blt%7C&th=1

I Rushed to the local Bed Bath and Beyond and in the parking lot I plugged it into the inverter.
Turned on for a second (YAY!! much rejoicing!)
then it shut off after one second (boo, must eat Robin's minstrels).

repeat, repeat repeat. (*%&U%($U(*(!!! welcome back to camper ownership sucker!

I know it has to do with the inverter right? not enough power right? should I get a bigger inverter with more juice? a diesel heater? should I sell it and live in a tent?

You WDW camper folks know your stuff and someone out there has the answer. I can feel it.

Anyways, thats my Ted Talk. If you have any advice for the heating situation please please send it over. maybe its something easy like upping the wattage? or getting a chinese diesel heater?

thanks !

I don't know about your heater. I have a suburban in my camper and it works well over 9k as long as the voltage doesn't drop too low. Its not a propane issue.

Agreed, not a propane issue. Furnace maybe. Do you know about the air ducting issue?

And forget electric heaters unless you can plug in to shore power. I have 200AH of usable power and an induction cooktop that take 1800W on high... about the same as an electric heater. I get about 1 hour of use at that power draw. The inverter I used for this is an AIMS 3000W Pure Sine wave inverter. Not small. Fed by 1AWG welding cable.

Weeeellll my experience with several types of propane furnaces has been that the combination of both high altitude and cold weather can be problematic. Even one of the small green propane bottles with parabolic heater on it will have trouble in really cold weather at high altitude. Given that our truck campers are really a 3-season camper, keeping it warm in there without shore power for several hours is going to be a really tough thing to accomplish. Perhaps with a lot of money, time and effort it can be done.

Howdy from Jackson Hole! Altitude 6,200'

I've done zero winter camping, but have met FWC couple from AK who were living in winter with no complaints. Hang in there, & I'll follow this thread for sure.

Thoughts:

• My FWC dealer & I both find the Honeywell digital thermostats to be unreliable crap. I've had 2 die & blow cold air. Get the old fashioned Honeywell @ Ace Hardware or Amazon. Carry a spare. They swap in easily after you add a few extra inches to the famously short FWC wiring. This could be your problem.

More thoughts for cold weather:

• Use a super expensive down sleeping bag. The kind Himilayan climbers snuggle into.
• Get the Insulation Pac. Best $800 you'll ever spend. It'll be toasty & the friggin' heater won't cycle on & off constantly.
• They don't make guages for our small LP tanks. I've bought a hand held luggage scale. Write the full weight & empty weights with Sharpie on the tanks.

When your travels bring you to the Grand Teton area, you've got a BBQ in my yard waiting!

Chris
MountainSufi AT gmail

Vic Harder wrote: Do you know about the air ducting issue?

No I don't. Please fill us in.

Remove the round foil duct between the heater case and the grille. Just put the grille back on without the duct.

Removes a restriction allowing more air to flow. Low air flow can prevent the sail switch from activating.

Restricted air flow can possibly cause motor overheating then, tripping the thermal breaker inside the furnace.

Removed it on mine. No more problems since I did that to mine at elevations up to 10K feet.

craig333 said:

I don't know about your heater. I have a suburban in my camper and it works well over 9k as long as the voltage doesn't drop too low. Its not a propane issue.

Click to expand...

Thanks! yeah the furnace is a head scratcher because in my old 2002 FWC it fired up no problem up at Alta many times. The only problem I had with it was the voltage going to 12.1 and the fan not being able to cycle fast enough but this whole altitude thing is bugging me

Vic Harder said:

Agreed, not a propane issue. Furnace maybe. Do you know about the air ducting issue?

And forget electric heaters unless you can plug in to shore power. I have 200AH of usable power and an induction cooktop that take 1800W on high... about the same as an electric heater. I get about 1 hour of use at that power draw. The inverter I used for this is an AIMS 3000W Pure Sine wave inverter. Not small. Fed by 1AWG welding cable.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this info! was looking at a Renogy 2000 sine wave inverter but like you say, it may be a furnace issue.

MountainSufi said:

Howdy from Jackson Hole! Altitude 6,200'

I've done zero winter camping, but have met FWC couple from AK who were living in winter with no complaints. Hang in there, & I'll follow this thread for sure.

Thoughts:

• My FWC dealer & I both find the Honeywell digital thermostats to be unreliable crap. I've had 2 die & blow cold air. Get the old fashioned Honeywell @ Ace Hardware or Amazon. Carry a spare. They swap in easily after you add a few extra inches to the famously short FWC wiring. This could be your problem.

More thoughts for cold weather:

• Use a super expensive down sleeping bag. The kind Himilayan climbers snuggle into.
• Get the Insulation Pac. Best $800 you'll ever spend. It'll be toasty & the friggin' heater won't cycle on & off constantly.
• They don't make guages for our small LP tanks. I've bought a hand held luggage scale. Write the full weight & empty weights with Sharpie on the tanks.

When your travels bring you to the Grand Teton area, you've got a BBQ in my yard waiting!

Chris
MountainSufi AT gmail

Click to expand...

Thanks man! we are heading up (sorta) by you sunday heading to Whitefish and then BC Canada for two weeks. I do have a sick 0 degree bag but this is more for working in the parking lot at the dinette table, and I agree wholeheartedly about the thermal wrap. my old FWC was ok at 0 degrees in a blizzard in Tahoe, never had a problem with the furnace blowing cold, until this one. head scratcher for sure....and watch it I will be poaching that BBQ!!

Colorado Mark said:

Remove the round foil duct between the heater case and the grille. Just put the grille back on without the duct.

Removes a restriction allowing more air to flow. Low air flow can prevent the sail switch from activating.

Restricted air flow can possibly cause motor overheating then, tripping the thermal breaker inside the furnace.

Removed it on mine. No more problems since I did that to mine at elevations up to 10K feet.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much! when I get back from Canada I am going to try this first thing. Great advice Sir! I will you updated to my progress for sure.

for those that are here with the same problem , I found this video helps a lot :

Late to this...but last Fall in Winds I spent 4 nights at 9,400+ with temps in mid 20's...heater/stove worked perfectly...2016 Hawk...

Yes remove the duct work. 95% certain that is your issue.

We have the Propex furnace with only moderate insulation. Have used it with no problem in below zero temps and altitudes over 10K. Maybe we are lucky, but installing the same on a new camper so hope to have similar results

Aside from issues with propane, thermostat, or the furnace control board, many furnace problems revolve around the sail switch. the furnace requires sufficient air flow from the blower to activate the sail switch for safety purposes. Anything that impedes that can result in the furnace not being able to start: failed or dirty sail switch, low battery, high altitude, back pressure from the ducting (anything resulting in lower flow rate), etc. These impacts are cumulative. Adressing one or more of these issues usually resolves the problem. Many have found that removing the ducting is a good fix that increases the air flow enough for the furnace to work at high altitude.

FWIW, our furnace worked fine at high altitude for the first ~1.5 years, but on our last trip above 8000' it started to click on and off. I suspect I will need to clean the sail switch or remove the ducting before our next higher elevation trip.

Colorado Mark said:

Remove the round foil duct between the heater case and the grille. Just put the grille back on without the duct.

Removes a restriction allowing more air to flow. Low air flow can prevent the sail switch from activating.

Restricted air flow can possibly cause motor overheating then, tripping the thermal breaker inside the furnace.

Removed it on mine. No more problems since I did that to mine at elevations up to 10K feet.

Click to expand...

It’s this. Same thing here.
I didn’t like removing the foil ducting completely. In my case, I was able to modify the exit vent (now just a grate) to reduce restriction and furnace now lights at higher altitudes.
The tortured path of the venting to the output is just obviously bad design.p, and I sincerely hope FWC fixes this for future owners.

+1 for air flow being restricted. I camp every weekend at 8500 feet have had nothing but issues. All issues pointed me towards a bad sail switch. After replacing 2 sail switches I deduced that was not the issue.

The furnace works fine at home at 4000 feet, but up in the mountains it just wont stay lit. This weekend while cursing the furnace and freezing my A$$ off I decided to remove the center plastic piece that allows you to direct airflow on the front of the furnace inside the camper. BOOM she fired right up and stayed functional with 0 issues. I tried replacing the plastic cover and the furnace clicked right off. Pull the plastic piece off and she lit right back up.

I think at high MSL altitudes just removing the ducting wasn't enough. Try removing the plastic cover in front of the furnace output and see if that works.

+however many we're at now.. remove the ducting. I bet it fixes your issues.

Fwiw, my factory furnace in my 2016 Grandby worked perfectly at 16000 ft. The last good one installed I think. ‍

16,000’? Where was that KP?