67 replies to this topic

[MarkBC]

One more thing: In the 11 months that I've been on this forum I've been amazed at how civil it is 99% of the time!

Maybe it's because it's hard to get too hot about camping gear/rigs...but I'm sure there are truck forums where there are flame wars of Dodge vs Ford (sorry, Chevy )...and in computer/phone forums there are vicious exchanges about Mac vs PC and iOS vs Android.

Maybe we are (for the most part) just a more-mature (not necessarily older) and nicer bunch of folks here. I know it can stay that way!

[Cort]

Mark,

Bravo....well said, I could not agree more. We all need to be careful how we post...myself included. I think that your post sums it perfectly

Cort

[SunMan]

"Being in civil service has nothing to do with how hard someone works...there are lazy people who take advantage and there are others who work there ##ss off; whether you are in civil service or the private industry has nothing to do with it. Just look how government contractors (private industry) have completely taken advantage of our system.

I happen to work in the private sector but I know lots of people who work civil service jobs and they are hard working and get very little compensation for the type of work they do. "

Late to the party here, but I must say as a civil servant AND an employee of the Department of Defense, I really appreciate your comments Cort.

There is no doubt oodles of waste in the Government system and dirt bag employees in every profession (public and private). Not to sound cliche but don't forget what we do keeps you all sleeping well at night and allows forums of free speech such as this to exist. It's more true than you will ever know. Could the sytem be better? You betcha. Just consider your alternatives.

'Nuff said, carry on.


Edit: I should have prefaced this by making it very clear I am in no way a fan of the war(s), just a peace loving human like the rest of you.

[BSS]

Land use is usually a matter of GREED packaged in political clothing, because that's the flavor most preferred by us sheep. The D and the R are really irrelevant when next to a politician's name when you get down to it; I look at it as advertising space offered to the highest bidder(s). Bought and paid for, and only there to fool us into further division amongst ourselves for the betterment of some billionaire's personal GREEDY interests. Which is exactly why we always have the money (new debt creation, actually) for WARS, but never anything for PEOPLE. It makes me sick. We have got to force ourselves to see beyond this toxic, divisive, political smokescreen or we'll continue to get exactly what we've gotten.

Anyways I fully support your shift towards advocacy, DD. I'm not going anywhere. Expanding the site to include vans and the like as well as including anyone interested in land use issues to come here and share information. That's huge. And you don't even need to rename the site for it to all to fit together like a glove!

I'd like to share another site where I've gone for years to keep up on advocacy issues. It's slow and simple, but the information the WSNFC keeps people apprised of is very current and relevant, and done without any political bias. Perhaps someone here is familiar with it? http://westernslopen....org/index2.php

Also, for people who would really like to become a bit more educated on how a lot of land use issues begin (specifically regarding our National Parks) and how they develop, I heartily recommend a book called Mountains Without Handrails. It should be required reading as far as I'm concerned, and also presented in a very apolitical way. It's over thirty years old, but the lessons it teaches are timeless.

[DirtyDog]

I don't want to have a politics forum. It's true that we are treading into politics a bit here but I'd like to keep it on point with the advocacy message. In pointing out defense expenditures I'm hoping to educate on some simple facts, not preach about the politics of the issue. IMO if the National Park budget is 1/500th of military expenditures, and park budgets are still getting cut, then we have a simple and obvious math problem.

"Invest more at home" is about as political as this site is going to get in the advocacy department.

[craig333]

I've seen too many sites ruined by the introduction of politics. Things get heated, feelings get hurt and boom, everyone leaves.

Advocacy by its nature is going to introduce some politics but we (I mean all of us) need to do our best to limit it to the topic at hand. I have great faith in the users of WTW to keep it civil.

[clikrf8]

I think we all agree that partisan politics should not be part of our discussions unless you are like me who advocates for our wild places. Then, I can be very partisan. It is important to me that we always have these places. Some people are happy with just taking the Grand Circle Tour of our great Southwest but others, like me and yourselves like to experience more. There are places for everyone from sightseers bagging that photo in front of the entrance sign to slot canyoneers.

I just wish people would take a moment to reflect on that tossed cigarette stub or receipt that they flippantly toss. Or, the ones who ignore the "Stay Off the Meadow" signs in favor of a shortcut to think about their actions multiplied by 100. That is why I prefer the backroads for solitude and spirit renewal or to photograph a beautiful landscape without someone asking you to please take their group photo.

Like many of you, it makes me sad when special interests who pay for powerful lobbyists play a nasty game. I think we need to quit being so self-centered and think about future generations. My grandfather was a logger from 1920 to 1965 in Washington state. i once asked him why they cut so many trees and he said that when they looked out over the foothills and mountains that the forest went on forever. And, I am guilty of living in a wood house, albeit not a big one, but still built with lumber. At least there are some vestiges of the giants, not huge ecosystems but somewhat of an idea of once was.

Enough ranting, philosophizing. We can hardly wait for our camper. And, yes, I know, a used one would be better as far as resources go but we looked and looked and as we looked we got older. We will just take good care of it and pass it along to like-minded folks.

[Hittheroad]

To Mark and the rest of us who find ourselves turning off NPR whenever whatever. Turning off NPR (and I am not suggesting you listen to something else) is not a sign of disliking politics: it is a sign of insufficient beer consumption to fully destroy rational thought. One of the reasons we need the national parks is so that there are places where we do not need to turn off NPR because we cannot turn it on to begin with. We need places where we can escape the constant media blither that is driving all of us nuts. A price tag of about $10 a person ( a couple of beers if you drink healthy) seems very cheap.

[highz]

There are some more numbers tossed around in this article:

http://www.nationalp...-cost-latte7254

Where again the point is made that those who want funding for parks plus other investments in American infrastructure, research, education, etc. are being forced to fight over the scraps.

[EdoHart]

...but I'm sure there are truck forums where there are flame wars of Dodge vs Ford (sorry, Chevy )...

What is your problem with Chevy?! Now I'm pissed This is getting personnal