67 replies to this topic

[MarkBC]

John Muir
Seems appropriate to mention here that there's a TV program tonight about THE force behind the creation/promotion of National Parks.

John Muir in the New World, a documentary being shown on PBS "American Masters" (check local listings)
(and no-doubt rebroadcast later as well as available to view later on PBS website)

I don't believe in heroes (heroes are all fallible humans -- principles before personalities)...But if I did believe in heroes then John Muir would be one of my heroes.

PS: If you're not a fan of the Sierra Club (which Muir founded) as it is now, remember that back when Muir was alive and campaigning for natural-lands preservation there was nothing to stop rampant land-abuse -- ok, land-rape.
[I also posted this on the "This National Parks Issue" thread, so sorry for the double-post, but I wanted to increase the chances that those who might want to see this would -- outside of the Member Private Forum]

[Hittheroad]

I may be an hour early but it seems we missed a great opportunity in this Rapture thing that did not come off. Many of the people opposing support of parks and protection of nature would have been sucked away if only it had worked. One of the arguments against protecting nature has been - why bother it is all about to end. Seems a good time for the rest of us to point out that there may be a flaw in this way of thinking.

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

I some how don't think we will change many minds. Maybe a better way would be give bunches of defense money to the betterment of america and have the defense

department hold bake sales to go to war. IMO

Frank

[JohnF]

I am new here. When I click the button at the bottom my post count will climb to 3.

In the past month my wife and I have visited 4 different national parks.

The nature of the very first post is political. You cannot post it and then argue that wish to keep politics out of the discussion. It is a much greater issue than a simple math problem. You see only the crest of the wave near you.

I do agree that given the social/political/economic system that we have in place in the USA that the intent of this thread in banding together like minded individuals into a group, the larger the better, is the proper move to make in order to make the changes as outlined. Bravo, and you have my support.

It is unfortunate that there is such a resistance to political debate but given my experiences where this sort of thing were allowed I cannot blame a moderator for posing such a restriction. Emotion too often pushes aside rationality and things can get out of hand fast. I know I wouldn't want to babysit a gazillion forum participants in all sorts of unkown states of drunkeness.

But if I could participate in such a discussion I would express why I believe many ideas I read in this thread may be flawed and perhaps why I think the National Park System should not exist. Rational debate can only improve the intellectual positions of its participants. Even if it is politics.

[Casa Escarlata Robles Too]

I am new here. When I click the button at the bottom my post count will climb to 3.

In the past month my wife and I have visited 4 different national parks.

The nature of the very first post is political. You cannot post it and then argue that wish to keep politics out of the discussion. It is a much greater issue than a simple math problem. You see only the crest of the wave near you.

I do agree that given the social/political/economic system that we have in place in the USA that the intent of this thread in banding together like minded individuals into a group, the larger the better, is the proper move to make in order to make the changes as outlined. Bravo, and you have my support.

It is unfortunate that there is such a resistance to political debate but given my experiences where this sort of thing were allowed I cannot blame a moderator for posing such a restriction. Emotion too often pushes aside rationality and things can get out of hand fast. I know I wouldn't want to babysit a gazillion forum participants in all sorts of unkown states of drunkeness.

But if I could participate in such a discussion I would express why I believe many ideas I read in this thread may be flawed and perhaps why I think the National Park System should not exist. Rational debate can only improve the intellectual positions of its participants. Even if it is politics.

Johnf,not to open a can of worms...but what type of organization would you propose we place our public lands ie national parks ,monuments,forests, ect.into???

Frank

[DLN]

Can open, this should be interesting.

[JohnF]

.. what type of organization ...

That is a good question. A little "cart before the horse" though. I only suggested that it is what it shouldn't be, which means we have to understand what it is first. MarkBC makes some good observations in the other thread that DD started when closure was threatened. If his observations are true, what do we expect of the system?

Can open, this should be interesting.

Nascar fan? The only thing you forgot was the little popcorn bag...

For the purpose of debate you've offered nothing. Zippo. I do not know where you stand, what you understand, what to ask you, or say to you. Participate. Reasoned debate is good for everyone who participates honestly.

Does your response mean you are happy with status quo? Some people certainly will be.

Ah, and I probably shouldn't go much further without an invite from DD because this is a really big socioeconomic debate; much bigger than just NPs; and I was serious when I said that given the current system his approach is the about the best you can do.

It all has to start with philosophy and most folks find that boring...

[DLN]

John,

You are new here and as such you might want to turn down the volume a bit. While there has been some political debate going on in this thread it is not the norm on this forum and we generally stay away from it.

My personal beliefs and opinions concerning the National/State Parks funding issue or for that matter on any other issue will be expressed when I decide it is appropriate, not as a response to someone wishing to open or continue a debate. As to the missing bag of popcorn and what I do or do not bring to the discussion it's not your place to set standards for my or any other members posts.

[MarkBC]

The thing is, argument -- or "discussion" as some will try to call it -- almost never changes the minds of people who already have a strong opinion on a subject. People do it because they enjoy spewing their opinions -- period.

You might say "I'm not looking for an argument -- just 'reasoned debate'" But I don't believe it. People engage in "debate" to convince, i.e., to intellectually conquer. People don't like to be conquered even if the conqueror is benign. And so they resist...and things usually get unpleasant/unfriendly (e.g., "war").
Check this out: What is the likelihood that you'll change your opinion about the value of NPS? Pretty small, right? Why? Because you've already thought about the issue and know what you believe, right? Yep -- that's my point.

And the fact that you're already lobbing spitballs about "Nascar fan" and "little popcorn bag" shows your real goal:
"Let's git it on!" Please, grow up kid.

There are plenty of forums (fori?) out there that are all about argument (most of them, in fact) if that's what gets you going...shouldn't be hard to find.

To repeat: Political argument is recreation/ego-gratification -- nothing more. It doesn't change people's minds and so is pointless except as recreation.

(BTW: I'm not saying I don't enjoy argument -- I do.. I love my opinions and I think everyone else should love my opinions, too. But this friendly and helpful Forum is not the place to convince people to love my opinions.)

[DirtyDog]

That is a good question. A little "cart before the horse" though. I only suggested that it is what it shouldn't be, which means we have to understand what it is first. MarkBC makes some good observations in the other thread that DD started when closure was threatened. If his observations are true, what do we expect of the system?


Nascar fan? The only thing you forgot was the little popcorn bag...

For the purpose of debate you've offered nothing. Zippo. I do not know where you stand, what you understand, what to ask you, or say to you. Participate. Reasoned debate is good for everyone who participates honestly.

Does your response mean you are happy with status quo? Some people certainly will be.

Ah, and I probably shouldn't go much further without an invite from DD because this is a really big socioeconomic debate; much bigger than just NPs; and I was serious when I said that given the current system his approach is the about the best you can do.

It all has to start with philosophy and most folks find that boring...

If I thought everyone could have political discussions while being absolutely respectful to other members then we would probably have more of these discussions. As is you seem to be getting upset before the discussion even started so I don't think it will work.

And that thread that I "threatened closure" on was way off topic and was allowed to go on too long like that anyway.